|
|
| Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15413 is a reply to message #15408] |
Mon, 15 December 2003 15:43   |
Ilia
Messages: 13241
Registered: January 2002
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member
Administrator
Core Developer |
|
|
This was not tried to my knowledge but you can try searching on Google. This however would not be a simple modification to make.
FUDforum Core Developer
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15481 is a reply to message #15479] |
Tue, 16 December 2003 23:14 |
Ilia
Messages: 13241
Registered: January 2002
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member
Administrator
Core Developer |
|
|
Given the state of CSS support by common browsers this is nearly impossible to implement. There are just too many incompatibilities, unimplemented functionality and differing implementation of the same CSS.
Maybe in a few years time this will be something to consider, but until then...
Equally important is "why?" afaik the CSS table are not rendered any faster then regular tables and I don't see the advantage of entirely CSS based design. Unfortunately the URL you've provided while certainly shows some very interesting examples does not go into the "why" either.
FUDforum Core Developer
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15518 is a reply to message #15496] |
Wed, 17 December 2003 18:44 |
gbjbaanb
Messages: 41
Registered: February 2003
Location: UK
Karma: 0
|
Member |
|
|
I waited until tonight to reply - and someone did it for me 
That CSSZenGarden site shows that enough CSS is cross-browser/platform to make it work in the mainstream. Incidentally, there's plenty of non-CSS HTML code (especially tables) that work differently in different browsers to make (most) CSS tags no worse than the current.
The reason to CSS-ify, is IMHO to split content from presentation. A CSS forum would probably make maintenance of the back-end code easier too (as you only then have to generate a pretty dull looking layout, the CSS makes it into the forum users see).
Also the forum wouldn't need options to generate/not generate some content - the CSS can simply not display it. Perhaps this is not the optimal way to hide features, but it is another example of why CSS could be useful to Ilia.
I don't think any other forum has this feature, so a 'pure' CSS front end would make FUDforum stand out a lot more. (especially as no amount of fancy back-end features make up for 1 cool looking feature in the minds of end-users  )
Bandwidth reduction is another major benefit - even if page generation is not affected, and page display times are the same. Users may still see benefits, but owners will definitely see benefits, especially for large forums. As the slashdot article says - they reduced bandwidth by 9k per request. (for the heavily trafficed slashdot - that means 14Gig bandwidth saved per year).
Printer-friendly pages are one 'skin' that would be useful.
A handheld version too.
Plus a visual-disability version would be extremely beneficial to some users.
Lastly, and possibly best. A per-customer skin. I'd like to use FUDforum for my customer's web sites. However, they all have different styles and colours etc.
So. I think it's probably a good thing, and is worth investigating further.
Here's another link: http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic2/
thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15530 is a reply to message #15526] |
Wed, 17 December 2003 21:57 |
Ilia
Messages: 13241
Registered: January 2002
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member
Administrator
Core Developer |
|
|
I see several problems with the CSS approach.
1) After reading the browser compatibility list and comparing it with log stats of several sites to which I have access to I must say that 10-15% of users will have problems with an all CSS design.
2) Switching to an all CSS design will without a doubt break compatiblity (completely) with every customized design. Forcing users to go through an extensive rework of their customizations.
3) Tableless CSS requires the use of fairly complex CSS, with which many people are not familiar with (I being one of those people)/ CSS is nice and simple for basic things but for more complicated things, tables are easier to visualize and use.
4) It'll take A LOT of time to do.
FUDforum Core Developer
|
|
|
|
| Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15535 is a reply to message #15530] |
Wed, 17 December 2003 22:54 |
gbjbaanb
Messages: 41
Registered: February 2003
Location: UK
Karma: 0
|
Member |
|
|
Ok.
1. I'm sure 10-15% of users would be affected, if you used all the CSS possible. There is a large (AFAIK) range of CSS that is not an issue.
Of course, I don't see your logs. Perhaps you see lots of people with IE5.
2. True, whilst upgrading a forum is reasonably simple (with modified templates), it is still a manual step, one that becomes more difficult the more configuration changes that have been made.
The more modifications you've made mean that making the same changes in CSS is more difficult - but one that should allow you to upgrade in future much more painlessly.
In this regard, a one-off pain of upgrading to CSS is worthwhile.. assuming these people upgrade at all considering the difficulty of migrating all their customisations.
Of course, if you've made only few changes, migrating to CSS is not a very big issue at all.
3. You're a clever chap, Ilia, and having to learn new, (better?) ways should not stop any of us from investing the time required. Otherwise, I'd still be using Pascal on 8-bit unix systems
Once its done for a sample stylesheet, it'll be easy for the majority of changes to be made. People who are likely to want significantly different styles will either have to learn the technology (like they did with PHP?), or already know it. That csszengarden site is modified by graphic designers - not developers! If they can do it....
4. True. This, perhaps is the best argument against migration. However, it may be possible to make a start with parts of FUDforum, putting more styles into the current stylesheet as you go. Step by step, we get where we're going, after all.
If you document your progress, and what you learn on the forum, we can all help migrate some FUD templates with what you teach us... most of it will be boring, repetitive work after all.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15537 is a reply to message #15535] |
Wed, 17 December 2003 23:24 |
Ilia
Messages: 13241
Registered: January 2002
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member
Administrator
Core Developer |
|
|
| Quote: |
1. I'm sure 10-15% of users would be affected, if you used all the CSS possible. There is a large (AFAIK) range of CSS that is not an issue.
Of course, I don't see your logs. Perhaps you see lots of people with IE5.
|
The logs I am looking at tell me that there are still plenty of people using IE 5.0 and Opera < 7.0 as well as early mozillas (0.9 - 1.3). The total sum of these people averages between 10-15%. While certainly nor a majority that's still a large minority that will be affected.
| Quote: |
Once its done for a sample stylesheet, it'll be easy for the majority of changes to be made.
|
I am not so certain in my (albeit limited) experience I've seen CSS behave somewhat unusually when a large hiearchy is involved. And that is exactly what will happen when we try to replace table within tables within tables with CSS.
| Quote: |
That csszengarden site is modified by graphic designers - not developers! If they can do it....
|
Everyone has their stregths, just because they can do it does not mean it's easy. I am quite certains that web developers who show case their work on that site are quite skilled with CSS and as far as CSS maybe far beyond made developers who's skill set is in the arena of PHP, Perl, C, etc...
| Quote: |
4. True. This, perhaps is the best argument against migration. However, it may be possible to make a start with parts of FUDforum, putting more styles into the current stylesheet as you go. Step by step, we get where we're going, after all.
|
I'd really like to see one of the forum's pages done completely in CSS (let's say the front page) before making any decisions.
FUDforum Core Developer
|
|
|
|
| Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15538 is a reply to message #15536] |
Wed, 17 December 2003 23:25 |
Ilia
Messages: 13241
Registered: January 2002
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member
Administrator
Core Developer |
|
|
Why? What is there to gain?
XHTML bloats the HTML (more text), it also disallows certain elements that help browsers render pages and I see no benefits to such a conversion beyond wasting time.
FUDforum Core Developer
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15540 is a reply to message #15539] |
Thu, 18 December 2003 00:04 |
Ilia
Messages: 13241
Registered: January 2002
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member
Administrator
Core Developer |
|
|
There is nothing wrong with HTML 4.01 Transitional works great and you still didn't explain the advantages of XHTML over it. I mean it's just as easy to modify HTML 4.01 as it XHTML, some may even argue XHTML is more difficult because of it's uber strictness.
As for CSS I'd still recommend converting just 1 page (front page for example) of the forum and seeing what are the advantages and downfalls. Don't even try to convert the templates, just take the HTML output and convert that. Once we have a working prototype for a single page better conclusions can be drawn.
FUDforum Core Developer
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15698 is a reply to message #15695] |
Fri, 02 January 2004 04:27 |
Ilia
Messages: 13241
Registered: January 2002
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member
Administrator
Core Developer |
|
|
Dunno in my experience new standards have a poor browser penetration and cause more headache then anything else.
FUDforum Core Developer
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #15711 is a reply to message #15700] |
Fri, 02 January 2004 15:53 |
Ilia
Messages: 13241
Registered: January 2002
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member
Administrator
Core Developer |
|
|
When you can control the browser(s) then you can use any technology you like, since you know if they client browsers will support it or not. However, the forum needs to work on a as wide of a browser selection as possible.
FUDforum Core Developer
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #18276 is a reply to message #15570] |
Sat, 15 May 2004 15:37 |
|
|
| beamdriver wrote on Fri, 19 December 2003 06:41 |
| Ilia wrote on Wed, 17 December 2003 19:04 |
As for CSS I'd still recommend converting just 1 page (front page for example) of the forum and seeing what are the advantages and downfalls. Don't even try to convert the templates, just take the HTML output and convert that. Once we have a working prototype for a single page better conclusions can be drawn.
|
That's a sensible approach. If nobody takes up the challenge, I'll give it a try in a week or two, once I clear all this stuff off of my plate.
|
Any progress on your efforts yet? Or do you still have food on your plate  Just wondering, because you were so enthusiastic about this and I'd like to know where you've gotten on this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #20785 is a reply to message #15408] |
Thu, 28 October 2004 20:28 |
D9rr
Messages: 12
Registered: October 2004
Karma: 0
|
Junior Member |
|
|
CSS/XHTML design is starting to be a 'good thing' now-a-days. There's at least one forum that's converting to a table-less layout: PunBB version 1.2. Once it comes out it might be worth taking a look at it for ideas.
Dean
|
|
|
|
| Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #20829 is a reply to message #15408] |
Fri, 29 October 2004 13:31 |
 |
JamesS
Messages: 275
Registered: July 2002
Location: Atlanta, GA
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
D9rr: XHTML is indeed useful if you are writing a web page that uses other XML based markup. This forum, however, is straight HTML which requires no use of XML.
Personally, I would like to see the forum written to HTML 4.01 Strict. If it were written that way then changing to XHTML, if such a change were ever needed, would be trivial.
The following three articles explain very well why using CSS to represent a grid layout (read: using tables [minimally]) is a waste of time:
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/09/03/sliding-faux-columns/
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/09/05/css-grids/
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/09/06/to-be-tabled/
Basically, what you end up with is heavy markup that is structured like table markup but has to be styled to render like a table. And trust me, it is more trouble than it is worth to convert a grid layout page to all CSS. I worked for about two weeks to render http://thehub.clayton.edu/ without tables but ended up sticking with minimal tables because of compatibility (the page must work with IE). Note, though, that that page is tremendously better than the top level site, http://www.clayton.edu/ , which all "two clicks away from the front page" sites must be modeled after. I further cleaned it up on http://student.claytonstate.net/~csu10066/cims/index.html .
My point being, don't just say "I can't use tables they are bad" because a majority of people that are coming around to standards based design is proselytizing that you do so. Look at the situation and determine the best, most efficient, way to do the design while remaining compliant (hopefully strict compliant).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #20834 is a reply to message #20833] |
Fri, 29 October 2004 14:15 |
Ilia
Messages: 13241
Registered: January 2002
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member
Administrator
Core Developer |
|
|
The point that I was trying to make is that I see no reason to change something that works unless someone can clearly demonstrate that something new will be way better.
FUDforum Core Developer
|
|
|
|
| Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #20837 is a reply to message #20829] |
Fri, 29 October 2004 17:47 |
D9rr
Messages: 12
Registered: October 2004
Karma: 0
|
Junior Member |
|
|
I never said, "can't use tables; they are bad". Tables vs no-tables and semantically correct XHTML/CSS vs deprecated HTML are 2 totally different subjects.
Tables are the best solution for grid layouts, without question. However, they're frequently overused. It depends on the specific situation whether tables should be used or not.
The other point - whether to use XHTML/CSS - does not exclude using tables.
I just didn't get into it in depth in my previous post because it didn't seem necessary. My point was that (1)CSS is more supported these days, and (2)there are ways to code with less tables, resulting in quicker page load speeds. In short, I agree with you.
Dean
|
|
|
|
| Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #20861 is a reply to message #20829] |
Sun, 31 October 2004 05:07 |
Ric Fischer
Messages: 1
Registered: October 2004
Karma: 0
|
Junior Member |
|
|
| JamesS wrote on Fri, 29 October 2004 06:31 |
D9rr: XHTML is indeed useful if you are writing a web page that uses other XML based markup. This forum, however, is straight HTML which requires no use of XML.
|
An interesting concept: stagnation by default?
Perhaps a relevant example would help:
http://www.sixapart.com/pronet/2004/10/word_docs_from.html
And, of course, with the very same software, there's this:
http://www.sixapart.com/pronet/2004/10/using_movable_t_1.html
Web applications who do not learn to separate content from layout will ultimately be left behind.
However, I just read this thread. We went from
| Ilia wrote on Tue, 16 December 2003 16:14 |
Equally important is "why?" afaik the CSS table are not rendered any faster then regular tables and I don't see the advantage of entirely CSS based design.
|
... to ...
| Ilia wrote on Tue, 19 October 2004 08:57 |
All layout is already done with CSS
|
Not that we're table-less, yet. (I'll have to tell my low-vision client that I _still_ haven't found a forum for him, yet.) Sighted webmasters, me included until my client educated me, automatically hamper many sight-disadvantaged users when we use tables. I'd just love to see a forum with a style or theme that's truly linear ... much like reading a newsgroup message. Unfortunately, since the GUI of a newsreader usually can't handle giant fonts that well, newsreaders are themselves difficult for my client to use.
I'm sure FUDForum will eventually go this route. Meanwhile, I'll keep shopping for another forum with more open-ended features and with a more open-minded author. (This was not meant as a flame, just a thinking-out-loud comment.)
Ric Fischer
|
|
|
|
| Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #20867 is a reply to message #20861] |
Sun, 31 October 2004 18:06 |
Ilia
Messages: 13241
Registered: January 2002
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member
Administrator
Core Developer |
|
|
| Ric Fischer wrote on Sun, 31 October 2004 01:07 |
Web applications who do not learn to separate content from layout will ultimately be left behind.
|
The forum uses a templating system that only separates content from presentation layer but also separates text to allow for simple translations.
| Quote: |
However, I just read this thread. We went from
| Ilia wrote on Tue, 16 December 2003 16:14 |
Equally important is "why?" afaik the CSS table are not rendered any faster then regular tables and I don't see the advantage of entirely CSS based design.
|
... to ...
| Ilia wrote on Tue, 19 October 2004 08:57 |
All layout is already done with CSS
|
|
Table less layout is impractical, my position on the matter still stands. Using CSS in the place of various HTML formatting entities was done and made sense because it reduces the output and make customizing forum that much easier. Plus over the years browsers have matured enough that CSS used by the forum can be successfully rendered by all modern variants.
FUDforum Core Developer
|
|
|
|
| Re: Possible to do an all CSS theme [message #20877 is a reply to message #20861] |
Mon, 01 November 2004 01:54 |
D9rr
Messages: 12
Registered: October 2004
Karma: 0
|
Junior Member |
|
|
| Ric Fischer wrote on Sun, 31 October 2004 01:07 |
I'm sure FUDForum will eventually go this route. Meanwhile, I'll keep shopping for another forum with more open-ended features and with a more open-minded author. (This was not meant as a flame, just a thinking-out-loud comment.)
|
Ric, didn't you see my post regarding PunBB? It's next release (1.2) will use DIVs instead of tables for most of the layout:
| D9rr wrote on Thu, 28 October 2004 16:28 |
There's at least one forum that's converting to a table-less layout: PunBB version 1.2. Once it comes out it might be worth taking a look at it for ideas.
|
Or, just convert FUDforum to a table-less layout yourself. It wouldn't be that difficult.
Dean
[Updated on: Mon, 01 November 2004 01:57] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
Calendar
Search
Help
Members
Register
Login
Home
]