| newbie question [message #172921] |
Sat, 12 March 2011 00:17  |
Robert Crandal
Messages: 3
Registered: March 2011
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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I want to build a website that allows users to create their own
profile accounts, kind of similar to Myspace or any other website.
So, users will be able to create their own passwords, then login
and manage their profile, then logout when done.
My questions are, what sort of programming languages or web skills
do I need to learn in order to develop something like this? Is the
source code typically complex for something like this? Is there any
sample source code which shows how to create and manage the
accounts of hundreds of website visitors? Is CGI or PHP involved
in this process?
Thank you, I really would like to know more about this subject.
Right now, all I know is HTML, CSS and Javascript, but it seems
like I'm missing further skills to be able to create a website which
offers user logins, or shopping carts, and other complex features.
Robert Crandal.
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| Re: newbie question [message #172922 is a reply to message #172921] |
Sat, 12 March 2011 01:16  |
Jerry Stuckle
Messages: 2598
Registered: September 2010
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 3/11/2011 7:17 PM, Robert Crandal wrote:
> I want to build a website that allows users to create their own
> profile accounts, kind of similar to Myspace or any other website.
> So, users will be able to create their own passwords, then login
> and manage their profile, then logout when done.
>
> My questions are, what sort of programming languages or web skills
> do I need to learn in order to develop something like this? Is the
> source code typically complex for something like this? Is there any
> sample source code which shows how to create and manage the
> accounts of hundreds of website visitors? Is CGI or PHP involved
> in this process?
>
> Thank you, I really would like to know more about this subject.
> Right now, all I know is HTML, CSS and Javascript, but it seems
> like I'm missing further skills to be able to create a website which
> offers user logins, or shopping carts, and other complex features.
>
> Robert Crandal.
>
>
You will need some type of server-side language, such as PHP, Perl,
Python, Ruby on Rails or any of a dozen others. You will also probably
want a database, so you'll need to learn SQL and a database such as MySQL.
Source code can be as easy or complex as you want to make it. And you
really don't worry about managing "hundreds of visitors" - you are only
dealing with one at a time. Let the tools such as the database take
care of the rest.
But you also have to be VERY CAREFUL. There are any number of ways
hackers can break into your site unless you know *exactly* what you're
doing. For example, Google "SQL Injection".
The most important thing to remember is NEVER trust anything from the
user. ALWAYS verify EVERYTHING, even data from forms you sent.
Since you have no experience in server-side programming, I would
recommend you get one of the CMS's which will do much of that for you.
There are any number around (but discussions/recommendations for which
to use is beyond the scope of this newsgroup).
--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
==================
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| Re: newbie question [message #172923 is a reply to message #172922] |
Sat, 12 March 2011 01:58 |
Twayne
Messages: 135
Registered: September 2010
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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In news:ilehhp$fem$1(at)news(dot)eternal-september(dot)org,
Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net> typed:
:: On 3/11/2011 7:17 PM, Robert Crandal wrote:
::: I want to build a website that allows users to create
::: their own profile accounts, kind of similar to Myspace or
::: any other website. So, users will be able to create their
::: own passwords, then login and manage their profile, then
::: logout when done.
:::
::: My questions are, what sort of programming languages or
::: web skills do I need to learn in order to develop
::: something like this? Is the source code typically complex
::: for something like this? Is there any sample source code
::: which shows how to create and manage the accounts of
::: hundreds of website visitors? Is CGI or PHP involved
::: in this process?
:::
::: Thank you, I really would like to know more about this
::: subject. Right now, all I know is HTML, CSS and
::: Javascript, but it seems like I'm missing further skills
::: to be able to create a website which offers user logins,
::: or shopping carts, and other complex features.
:::
::: Robert Crandal.
:::
:::
::
:: You will need some type of server-side language, such as
:: PHP, Perl, Python, Ruby on Rails or any of a dozen others.
:: You will also probably want a database, so you'll need to
:: learn SQL and a database such as MySQL.
::
:: Source code can be as easy or complex as you want to make
:: it. And you really don't worry about managing "hundreds
:: of visitors" - you are only dealing with one at a time.
:: Let the tools such as the database take
:: care of the rest.
::
:: But you also have to be VERY CAREFUL. There are any
:: number of ways hackers can break into your site unless you
:: know *exactly* what you're doing. For example, Google
:: "SQL Injection".
::
:: The most important thing to remember is NEVER trust
:: anything from the user. ALWAYS verify EVERYTHING, even
:: data from forms you sent.
::
:: Since you have no experience in server-side programming, I
:: would recommend you get one of the CMS's which will do
:: much of that for you. There are any number around (but
:: discussions/recommendations for which
:: to use is beyond the scope of this newsgroup).
::
:: --
:: ==================
:: Remove the "x" from my email address
:: Jerry Stuckle
:: JDS Computer Training Corp.
:: jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
:: ==================
True, there are many CMS's around, but I haven't seen any of the freebies
I've looked at that carried much in the way of Security and Protection code.
Some will use an almost impossible to read Captcha code, but even then
doesn't provide a lot of protection compared to what one really needs or
wants. While there is no such thing as a 100% "protected" site, all one can
do is come as close to that as they can. CMS's I've looked at don't provde
much more than NOF does in that manner, although 12 claims to have improved
it. I'd have to see it to believe it though.
Javascript is another set of holes, depending on where/how it's used and
I avoid it as much as possible in any kind of user input; it's too easily
hackable plus not everyone uses javascript, so you also have to make sure
things still work without it.
I would recommend a good research job on Security and Protection of Input
code of any kind and a little practice wtih it. w3schools.com and php.net
are two excellent starting points with excellent information on the "why" of
all their recommendations and loads of information for further searches.
Often, an ISP will also offer such things; does yours?
Personally I use PHP, but as another suggested, other languages are just
as good; the use of server-side code keeps the code from the eyes of the
guys that look at the Source Code wit their browser, at least, and from
anyone if done properly. I use the cgi-bin for hiding important files I
don't want looked at by anyone that gets in without usernames and passwords.
You'll want a good wysiwyg html editor of some sort. The offerings range
from the free NVU to Dreamweaver and my favorite, Fusion right now, although
their official support no longer exists and there is no company support for
it that's much good yet. There are excellent newsgroups available though.
Just my opinion. It's also about $200 per seat, so not free by any means. I
guess it depends on how involved you want to get with your web sites. NOF-11
has been the standard version and I see NOF12 is finally out, but I haven't
checked to see whether it's buggy or not. It could be, since NetObjects is
the only selling the product, but they long ago sold it to some mystery
company that turned around and resold it, if comments on this newsgroup are
accurate. If possble, I'd try to wait and watch the group comments on the
product before I spent money of NOF-12 since it wasn't created by the
original creators of NOF (Netobjects Fusion, which it isn't any longer,
apparently).
Just my opinions; ymmv of course.
Twayne1
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| Re: newbie question [message #172925 is a reply to message #172923] |
Sat, 12 March 2011 02:50 |
P E Schoen
Messages: 86
Registered: January 2011
Karma: 0
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Member |
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"Twayne" wrote in message news:ilek14$acl$1(at)news(dot)eternal-september(dot)org...
> True, there are many CMS's around, but I haven't seen any of the freebies
> I've looked at that carried much in the way of Security and Protection
> code.
Look at http://cakephp.org/, which is more of a RAD system for PHP, but it
has a demo blog application that is a good starting point. See my post of
2/20/2011. There are links to some youtube tutorials that are helpful in
stepping through the process.
Check also some of my other posts here. I'm also a newbie, and I started my
server-side scripting experience just in September when I used Perl. Also
look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-site_scripting and
http://htmlpurifier.org/.
I made a simple demo using an HTML form and a PHP server script for adding
emails to a database and displaying them. It's still on my server at:
http://www.pauleschoen.com/bgf/BGFemailDemo.htm, and the password is
"YourPassword". I can supply more details if you like.
Paul
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| Re: newbie question [message #172927 is a reply to message #172923] |
Sat, 12 March 2011 03:22 |
Jerry Stuckle
Messages: 2598
Registered: September 2010
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 3/11/2011 8:58 PM, Twayne wrote:
> In news:ilehhp$fem$1(at)news(dot)eternal-september(dot)org,
> Jerry Stuckle<jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net> typed:
> :: On 3/11/2011 7:17 PM, Robert Crandal wrote:
> ::: I want to build a website that allows users to create
> ::: their own profile accounts, kind of similar to Myspace or
> ::: any other website. So, users will be able to create their
> ::: own passwords, then login and manage their profile, then
> ::: logout when done.
> :::
> ::: My questions are, what sort of programming languages or
> ::: web skills do I need to learn in order to develop
> ::: something like this? Is the source code typically complex
> ::: for something like this? Is there any sample source code
> ::: which shows how to create and manage the accounts of
> ::: hundreds of website visitors? Is CGI or PHP involved
> ::: in this process?
> :::
> ::: Thank you, I really would like to know more about this
> ::: subject. Right now, all I know is HTML, CSS and
> ::: Javascript, but it seems like I'm missing further skills
> ::: to be able to create a website which offers user logins,
> ::: or shopping carts, and other complex features.
> :::
> ::: Robert Crandal.
> :::
> :::
> ::
> :: You will need some type of server-side language, such as
> :: PHP, Perl, Python, Ruby on Rails or any of a dozen others.
> :: You will also probably want a database, so you'll need to
> :: learn SQL and a database such as MySQL.
> ::
> :: Source code can be as easy or complex as you want to make
> :: it. And you really don't worry about managing "hundreds
> :: of visitors" - you are only dealing with one at a time.
> :: Let the tools such as the database take
> :: care of the rest.
> ::
> :: But you also have to be VERY CAREFUL. There are any
> :: number of ways hackers can break into your site unless you
> :: know *exactly* what you're doing. For example, Google
> :: "SQL Injection".
> ::
> :: The most important thing to remember is NEVER trust
> :: anything from the user. ALWAYS verify EVERYTHING, even
> :: data from forms you sent.
> ::
> :: Since you have no experience in server-side programming, I
> :: would recommend you get one of the CMS's which will do
> :: much of that for you. There are any number around (but
> :: discussions/recommendations for which
> :: to use is beyond the scope of this newsgroup).
> ::
> :: --
> :: ==================
> :: Remove the "x" from my email address
> :: Jerry Stuckle
> :: JDS Computer Training Corp.
> :: jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
> :: ==================
>
> True, there are many CMS's around, but I haven't seen any of the freebies
> I've looked at that carried much in the way of Security and Protection code.
> Some will use an almost impossible to read Captcha code, but even then
> doesn't provide a lot of protection compared to what one really needs or
> wants. While there is no such thing as a 100% "protected" site, all one can
> do is come as close to that as they can. CMS's I've looked at don't provde
> much more than NOF does in that manner, although 12 claims to have improved
> it. I'd have to see it to believe it though.
First of all, CAPTCHA has NOTHING to do with security.
And you need to look again. The Open Source CMS's have really improved
their security.
> Javascript is another set of holes, depending on where/how it's used and
> I avoid it as much as possible in any kind of user input; it's too easily
> hackable plus not everyone uses javascript, so you also have to make sure
> things still work without it.
>
Javascript has its uses, and is very good in its place. I use it where
appropriate.
> I would recommend a good research job on Security and Protection of Input
> code of any kind and a little practice wtih it. w3schools.com and php.net
> are two excellent starting points with excellent information on the "why" of
> all their recommendations and loads of information for further searches.
Neither site has very much in input security. Heck - even Wikipedia has
a better discussion of SQL Injection than either of these sites.
> Often, an ISP will also offer such things; does yours?
No ISP offers protection for user scripts.
> Personally I use PHP, but as another suggested, other languages are just
> as good; the use of server-side code keeps the code from the eyes of the
> guys that look at the Source Code wit their browser, at least, and from
> anyone if done properly. I use the cgi-bin for hiding important files I
> don't want looked at by anyone that gets in without usernames and passwords.
cgi-bin does nothing to help you. There are much better ways of doing
this (like placing the files completely outside the web server's
directory hierarchy).
> You'll want a good wysiwyg html editor of some sort. The offerings range
> from the free NVU to Dreamweaver and my favorite, Fusion right now, although
> their official support no longer exists and there is no company support for
> it that's much good yet. There are excellent newsgroups available though.
> Just my opinion. It's also about $200 per seat, so not free by any means. I
> guess it depends on how involved you want to get with your web sites. NOF-11
> has been the standard version and I see NOF12 is finally out, but I haven't
> checked to see whether it's buggy or not. It could be, since NetObjects is
> the only selling the product, but they long ago sold it to some mystery
> company that turned around and resold it, if comments on this newsgroup are
> accurate. If possble, I'd try to wait and watch the group comments on the
> product before I spent money of NOF-12 since it wasn't created by the
> original creators of NOF (Netobjects Fusion, which it isn't any longer,
> apparently).
>
Worst advice ever. I have yet to see a WYSIWYG editor which produces
even half-assed code. Most are much worse.
I can tell in about 0.02 seconds when someone has used one - and EVERY
site I've worked on where one has to be used requires major cleanup.
> Just my opinions; ymmv of course.
>
> Twayne1
>
>
--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
==================
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| Re: newbie question [message #172928 is a reply to message #172922] |
Sat, 12 March 2011 03:43 |
Robert Crandal
Messages: 3
Registered: March 2011
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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"Jerry Stuckle" <jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net> wrote in message
news:ilehhp$fem$1(at)news(dot)eternal-september(dot)org...
>
> You will need some type of server-side language, such as PHP, Perl,
> Python, Ruby on Rails or any of a dozen others. You will also probably
> want a database, so you'll need to learn SQL and a database such as MySQL.
>
Does that mean I need to buy an actual "database"? Or, do databases and the
MySQL language typically already exist on most servers?
>
> Since you have no experience in server-side programming, I would recommend
> you get one of the CMS's which will do much of that for you. There are any
> number around (but discussions/recommendations for which to use is beyond
> the scope of this newsgroup).
>
I've never heard of a CMS before. What is it? Is it sofware that I need
to buy?
Thank you for your help!
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| Re: newbie question [message #172929 is a reply to message #172928] |
Sat, 12 March 2011 04:42 |
Jerry Stuckle
Messages: 2598
Registered: September 2010
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 3/11/2011 10:43 PM, Robert Crandal wrote:
>
> "Jerry Stuckle" <jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net> wrote in message
> news:ilehhp$fem$1(at)news(dot)eternal-september(dot)org...
>>
>> You will need some type of server-side language, such as PHP, Perl,
>> Python, Ruby on Rails or any of a dozen others. You will also probably
>> want a database, so you'll need to learn SQL and a database such as
>> MySQL.
>>
>
> Does that mean I need to buy an actual "database"? Or, do databases and the
> MySQL language typically already exist on most servers?
>
Any decent hosting company (and most non-decent ones) will have a
database available, usually MySQL or PostGresSQL.
>>
>> Since you have no experience in server-side programming, I would
>> recommend you get one of the CMS's which will do much of that for you.
>> There are any number around (but discussions/recommendations for which
>> to use is beyond the scope of this newsgroup).
>>
>
> I've never heard of a CMS before. What is it? Is it sofware that I need
> to buy?
>
Content Management System. There are a number around, many of the
free/open source.
But that's off topic here; check for a more appropriate newsgroup
(sorry, I don't have any suggestions off hand).
>
> Thank you for your help!
>
>
--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
==================
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| Re: newbie question [message #172933 is a reply to message #172921] |
Sat, 12 March 2011 10:10 |
Derek Turner
Messages: 48
Registered: October 2010
Karma: 0
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Member |
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On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:17:44 -0700, Robert Crandal wrote:
> I want to build a website that allows users to create their own profile
> accounts, kind of similar to Myspace or any other website. So, users
> will be able to create their own passwords, then login and manage their
> profile, then logout when done.
Why re-invent the wheel? Joomla, Drupal to name but two allow you to do
this with no programming skills using a web interface.
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| Re: newbie question [message #172934 is a reply to message #172921] |
Sat, 12 March 2011 11:36 |
The Natural Philosoph
Messages: 993
Registered: September 2010
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Robert Crandal wrote:
> I want to build a website that allows users to create their own
> profile accounts, kind of similar to Myspace or any other website.
> So, users will be able to create their own passwords, then login
> and manage their profile, then logout when done.
>
> My questions are, what sort of programming languages or web skills
> do I need to learn in order to develop something like this? Is the
> source code typically complex for something like this? Is there any
> sample source code which shows how to create and manage the
> accounts of hundreds of website visitors? Is CGI or PHP involved
> in this process?
>
Yup. Probably mysql too, if you want to store user data in a more
structured way.
> Thank you, I really would like to know more about this subject.
> Right now, all I know is HTML, CSS and Javascript, but it seems
> like I'm missing further skills to be able to create a website which
> offers user logins, or shopping carts, and other complex features.
>
Mysql/PHP is the next area to master, and getting a good Apache
installation. Suggest you start with a decent Linux machine with a
reasonable amount of RAM: its less of a pain to administer once its up,
than anything based on Microsoft.
There are suites of software than can help (or hinder?) a project like
this. But beware of these, hackers know them rather well, and if you
aren't really on top of what they do, they can end up being huge
problems to get to do what you want securely. I don't use them, I prefer
to understand the problem and start again from square one. YMMV.
> Robert Crandal.
>
>
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| Re: newbie question [message #172935 is a reply to message #172933] |
Sat, 12 March 2011 11:40 |
The Natural Philosoph
Messages: 993
Registered: September 2010
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Derek Turner wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:17:44 -0700, Robert Crandal wrote:
>
>> I want to build a website that allows users to create their own profile
>> accounts, kind of similar to Myspace or any other website. So, users
>> will be able to create their own passwords, then login and manage their
>> profile, then logout when done.
>
> Why re-invent the wheel? Joomla, Drupal to name but two allow you to do
> this with no programming skills using a web interface.
ER, no. If a certain person I know is anything to go by, they allow you
to *think* you have done this, but the reality is his sites been hacked
about 5 times, still don't work properly, are hugely slow, and look
different on every single browser. That was Joomla. They also look a
right bloody mess.
He is not a programmer, beyond 'copy this and see what happens' or
'install this and fiddle with the control panel'
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| Re: newbie question [message #172938 is a reply to message #172935] |
Sat, 12 March 2011 13:22 |
Jerry Stuckle
Messages: 2598
Registered: September 2010
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 3/12/2011 6:40 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Derek Turner wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:17:44 -0700, Robert Crandal wrote:
>>
>>> I want to build a website that allows users to create their own profile
>>> accounts, kind of similar to Myspace or any other website. So, users
>>> will be able to create their own passwords, then login and manage their
>>> profile, then logout when done.
>>
>> Why re-invent the wheel? Joomla, Drupal to name but two allow you to
>> do this with no programming skills using a web interface.
>
> ER, no. If a certain person I know is anything to go by, they allow you
> to *think* you have done this, but the reality is his sites been hacked
> about 5 times, still don't work properly, are hugely slow, and look
> different on every single browser. That was Joomla. They also look a
> right bloody mess.
>
> He is not a programmer, beyond 'copy this and see what happens' or
> 'install this and fiddle with the control panel'
So one of your sites got hacked, huh? Doesn't surprise me.
--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
==================
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| Re: newbie question [message #172945 is a reply to message #172928] |
Sat, 12 March 2011 19:09 |
Michael Vilain
Messages: 88
Registered: September 2010
Karma: 0
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Member |
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In article <weydnXr2IPUhdufQnZ2dnUVZ5rudnZ2d(at)giganews(dot)com>,
"Robert Crandal" <rcranz143101(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle" <jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net> wrote in message
> news:ilehhp$fem$1(at)news(dot)eternal-september(dot)org...
>>
>> You will need some type of server-side language, such as PHP, Perl,
>> Python, Ruby on Rails or any of a dozen others. You will also probably
>> want a database, so you'll need to learn SQL and a database such as MySQL.
>>
>
> Does that mean I need to buy an actual "database"? Or, do databases and the
> MySQL language typically already exist on most servers?
>
>>
>> Since you have no experience in server-side programming, I would recommend
>> you get one of the CMS's which will do much of that for you. There are any
>> number around (but discussions/recommendations for which to use is beyond
>> the scope of this newsgroup).
>>
>
> I've never heard of a CMS before. What is it? Is it sofware that I need
> to buy?
>
>
> Thank you for your help!
CMS = Code Management System
Drupal and Joomla run on top of a LAMP (Linux+Apache+MySQL+PHP) platform
most often found by web hosting companies. If you're setting up your
own server, that's the software you install. It's all free. These
sorts of systems are designed to remove the need of a programmer to
create content. You _can_ write code and run it on the sites, but you
better know what you're doing otherwise the slightest mistake will bring
the entire site down.
Wordpress is also a CMS but meant for single-user blogs (articles and
comments posted by anonymous or logged in users). Drupal and Joomla
allow for entire communities to function within their frameworks. The
types of things you can put on pages is much more diverse than text and
graphics.
Drupal and Joomla are pretty resource intensive. Last time I checked,
most of the smaller web hosting companies didn't support it officially.
I chose A2Hosting because they supported Drupal which has all the
features you outlined plus modules you can install to extend it further.
Bluehost also supports Drupal but they're a Mormon-based company and I
made the political decision not to support them. YMMV.
Joomla is programmable, but if you want templates or other extensions,
you have to buy them from various 3rd-party providers. Drupal has a big
developer community.
Wander around Wikipedia (also a CMS) and read up on the topic. There
are a bunch out there.
--
DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...
[I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically ignored]
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| Re: newbie question [message #172946 is a reply to message #172935] |
Sat, 12 March 2011 19:10 |
Twayne
Messages: 135
Registered: September 2010
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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In news:ilfm38$cm4$1(at)news(dot)albasani(dot)net,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp(at)invalid(dot)invalid> typed:
:: Derek Turner wrote:
::: On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:17:44 -0700, Robert Crandal wrote:
:::
:::: I want to build a website that allows users to create
:::: their own profile accounts, kind of similar to Myspace
:::: or any other website. So, users will be able to create
:::: their own passwords, then login and manage their
:::: profile, then logout when done.
:::
::: Why re-invent the wheel? Joomla, Drupal to name but two
::: allow you to do this with no programming skills using a
::: web interface.
::
:: ER, no. If a certain person I know is anything to go by,
:: they allow you to *think* you have done this, but the
:: reality is his sites been hacked about 5 times, still
:: don't work properly, are hugely slow, and look different
:: on every single browser. That was Joomla. They also look a
:: right bloody mess.
::
:: He is not a programmer, beyond 'copy this and see what
:: happens' or 'install this and fiddle with the control
:: panel'
Unfortunately you are correct in your comment; I also know ofpeople with the
same experience. Security and Protection are usually very lacking also but
that type manages to stay fairly well below the radar, fortunately.
I can understand how people get tricked into that, too. They want to
dabble in a web site but don't have ready access to the knowledge needed to
choose the best tools or at least the better tools, so they do what they can
find.
I thought CMS apps might be useful too, until I tried a few of them.
Joomla was one, I forget the other three right now. They ranged from really
pathetic and impossible to accurately position anything on a page, or even
the sequence of the items, and no way to insert your own code if you should
need to. One of them was decent and allowed most of the standard HTML work
but forget about getting anything server-side working and thus very poor
security and protection methods. With just a little javascript, I was able
to hack into my test site without hardly trying. It's like, if you can't
drive, take a taxi but don't expect to be able to predict your route to get
anywhere.
OTOH, I have seen a few CMS based sites that weren't too bad, albeit very
simple and with an awfully static look to them. But they did the job for the
companies that used them; all they wanted was their contact info online so
it worked OK for them. Each to his own is what it amounts to, I guess. CSS,
HTML and PHP are so simple and easy to learn though, it's not that hard to
get a good base started for being able to write decent web sites.
Cheers,
Twayne`
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