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Re: out of sheer curiosity... [message #177433 is a reply to message #177432] Thu, 29 March 2012 13:37 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
Messages: 993
Registered: September 2010
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Erwin Moller wrote:
> On 3/29/2012 12:46 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> Leonardo Azpurua wrote:
>>> "M. Strobel" <sorry_no_mail_here(at)nowhere(dot)dee> escribi� en el mensaje
>>> news:9tij5fFmi8U1(at)mid(dot)uni-berlin(dot)de...
>>>
>>>> Yes, this was truly an article.
>>>>
>>>> Next problem (or assignment) is to understand the supported paradigms,
>>>> and how to use them to meet your requirements.
>>>>
>>>> I think of the - real or felt? - large ignorance of OO programming in
>>>> PHP.
>>>
>>>
>>> Probably felt.
>>>
>>> I mean, I am ignorant of much of PHP. But its support for OOP is quite
>>> standard: single inheritance, interfaces, private, public and
>>> protected visibility, abstract vs. concrete classes and methods. The
>>> "magic methods" which I just discovered thanks to Alvaro Vicario's
>>> response to my original post are sort of "idiosincratic", but
>>> perfectly understandable. It lacks operator overloading (which I have
>>> never actually used) and signature based overloading (which might come
>>> handy, but would probably conflict with the dynamic nature of PHP
>>> function calls, which I certainly prefer).
>>>
>>> I have been using (crippled) OO languages for the last couple of
>>> decades, and my analisys and design methods are purely OO.
>>>
>>
>> Do you know, I don't even know when my analysis and design methods are
>> OO and when they are not.
>
> Erm... seriously TNP?
>
> Hint: If you use words like 'class' and 'new' you are typically in OO.
> If you use functions outside a class you are typically procedural.
>
> I think you know.
>
>
>>
>> Its just another way of doing things and I let my understanding of the
>> problem guide me, not a set of arbitrary rules.
>
> As it should!
>
> But what 'rules' are you referring to?
>
> PHP's OO is pretty straightforward.
> I think they did a decent job implementing OO.(php 5 that is)
>
> Creating smart classes is up to the programmer.
> I am not aware of any extra 'rules'.
>
> Are you maybe referring to all kinds of design patterns scattered around
> the web?
> (In which case I tend to agree, because implementing other people's
> solutions can take the fun out of programming. But reading them never
> hurts. And when you agree to a certain approach you can even decide to
> follow it yourself. It is all up to you, the programmer.)
>
>>
>> I dont use OOP languages, because having read up on them extensively
>> when they first appeared I simply thought 'oh, ok, I see where they are
>> coming from' and incorporated a few ideas about how code and data should
>> be organised in pseudo object form, and moved on. The benefits are in
>> the way of looking at things, not enforcing a set of strictures on
>> programming. Especially when many coding problems do not lend themselves
>> to those strictures.
>
> True, but also a truism.
> "If a certain problem is unfit for OO approach, it is unfit for OO
> approach."
>
> But even then, OO often won't hurt too much either.
> You can simply use your procedural logic in OO too.
> I worked like that in Java when I started learning the language, until I
> discovered how idiotic I was. All part of the learning curve. :-)
>
>
>>
>> (and almost all of the problems to which PHP is the natural language of
>> choice do not benefit from OOP. If a web site is the application each
>> php 'page' is an object in its own right..anyway.
>
> True for a simple plain webpage, but when you have something more
> complex OO can certainly help.
> Most (all?) modern MVC software are at least partly OO, simply because
> it makes things easier to organize.
>
> With OO you don't have to drag all the information around to each
> function that (might) need it. And scope is better organized: more
> intuitive.
>
> OO makes things easier to organize, that's all, but it DOESN'T define
> how to solve your problem at hand.
>
>
>
>> Neither are
>> microprocessors in the end object oriented. Object orientation stresses
>> the structure of data, whereas procedural coding stresses the way in
>> which processing is carried out.)
>
> Both true, but I don't think that the exact implementation on some
> microprocessor is relevant for >99% of all programmers.
>
> Most programmers have no clue how to code directly for a cpu.
> The last microprocessor I coded directly was the 6502.
> I have NO IDEA how to code for my current quadcode, and I don't care
> either.
>
> We have compilers and interpreters and bytecode and what's more to solve
> that.
> Programmers focus on the task at hand, often in a high level language.
> And OO is a very fine addition.
> Give it another try one day. :-)
>
>

Oh I use it now and again when forced to - not in PHP because its never
been necessary or helpful for the sort of projects I want to code in php
at all.

Its has its place more in designing C++ GUI apps. But even there huge
chunks have to be written in procedural code. Even if that code is
wrapped as an object..

In short you can code without an OOP language, but you cant code without
a procedural one, even if its only machine code.

And if you cant at least envisage how your code maps to a register set
and program counter and stack - well no wonder the world is full of
bloatware.





> Regards,
> Erwin Moller
>
>
>


--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

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