| Re: server-side vs.client-side [message #183609 is a reply to message #183584] |
Sat, 02 November 2013 16:46   |
Thomas 'PointedEars'
Messages: 701
Registered: October 2010
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Michael Vilain wrote:
> Arno Welzel <usenet(at)arnowelzel(dot)de> wrote:
>> Christoph Michael Becker, 2013-10-30 20:54:
>>> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> One question - since both you and Thomas seem to be from Germany, and
>>>> have the same misunderstanding of the word "normally", what does
>>>> "normally" translate to in German? What does it mean?
>>>
>>> In Germany it is "normalerweise"/"�blicherweise", what means as much
>>> usually. Anyway, a misunderstanding of the term "normally" is not the
>>> problem here for me. In my opinion, it is correct to state: "PHP is
>>> normally (usually, most often etc.) used on a server (for server-side
>>> programming)."
>>>
>>> It is as well correct to state: "No programming language is normally
>>> either server-side or client-side." Otherwise it would mean, that
>>> there are programming languages that couldn't be used outside of a
>>> client-server context.
>>
>> Exactly *this* is the wrong assumption, what "normally" means in this
>> context. It does *NOT* mean that a language can *never* be used in other
>> ways - it only says that is the the most common use of it.
>
> I've never seen javascript run on anything but a browser.
Which does not mean anything. Not only is that an /argumentum ad
ignorantiam/, a classic fallacy; but also, contrary to common misconception,
there is not even a (single) programming language called “javascript”.
> Unless someone's developed a non-browser version, I personally consider it
> a client-side scripting language.
“javascript” is not even a scripting language, let alone a programming
language. There is no “javascript”.
> It's meant to control a browser and nothing else,
ECMAScript implementations, which you might mistakenly subsume under
“javascript”, are scripting languages. (So is PHP.) “A scripting language
is a programming language that is used to manipulate, customise, and
automate the facilities of an existing system.” (ECMAScript Language
Specification, 5.1 Edition, section 4) Nothing more, nothing less.
While the original purpose for JavaScript (first called Mocha, then
LiveScript) was to provide scripting capabilities in the Netscape browser,
it has surpassed those constraints already in the days of Netscape (see
JavaScript 1.4 on Netscape Enterprise Server and successors). Today (that
is, since 2001 at the latest, 12 years ago), Netscape as a browser vendor
does not exist anymore; there is ECMAScript (first Edition: 1997) and
implementations of it. Implementations like “JavaScript” in Adobe Reader
and Google V8 JavaScript for node.js (an application server), and
“JavaScript” for MongoDb (an object-oriented DBMS).
See also <http://PointedEars.de/es-matrix> pp.
> which is the client for web pages.
There are no “web pages” either. There are HTML/XHTML/XML/SVG/MathML etc.
documents at best. “Web pages” is used by the same wannabes who think the
World Wide Web and the Internet are the same, and say “IP” instead of
“IP(v4) address when in fact “IP” means “Internet _Protocol_”. Blind people
talking about colors.
> php is not intended to run on the browser.
That much is true. The original meaning of PHP by Rasmus Lerdorf in 1994
was *P*ersonal *H*ome *P*age (intended to maintain his); it now means (more
appropriately) *P*HP *H*ypertext *P*reprocessor. However, that does not
preclude the possibility that PHP can run in the browser, client-side, or
that a PHP program does not have anything to do with hypertext at all; it is
just a programming language. But that was not even meant here.
> It runs on the server that the browser talks to.
No, it usually runs on the server that the HTTP client of the browser talks
to, as part of a HTTP server application.
> It can run as part of the web-server or from the command line.
If a program runs from the command line, it does not matter whether the
computer system it runs on is called a “server” for it could be, and
reasonably be called, a “client” at the same time. Therefore, the logic
leading to a programming language in which such a program is written being
called a “server-side (programming) language” is fundamentally flawed.
> Same for perl, Java, python, ruby, or C.
Yes, AISB the same logic is fundamentally flawed with regard to (all?) other
programming languages (certainly the ones mentioned here). There are Perl
scripts that have nothing to do with HTTP, and there are Perl-based
applications like Bugzilla that have. There are client-side Java-based
applications like Eclipse, SweetHome3D, and TV-Browser, and there are
server-side JavaServer Pages (JSP) based on Java which run on, for example,
Apache Tomcat. There are Python client programs like ketchup(1) and
youtube-dl(1), and there are Python-based application servers like Zope, and
Web-based CMSs running on it like Plone. There are C programs that have
never seen a httpd or a network in general, controlling filesystems or local
storage devices, and there is, for example the collection of C programs
named Apache that make up a Web server.
> To me, that makes them server-side programming languages.
Which shows that, due to lack of basic knowledge and experience, you have
not understood the problem. Hopefully it is clearer to you now.
> I don't know if that matches other's definitions of server-side vs.
> client-side, but that's my definition.
Laymen like you can make up any definition they want; that does not mean
that it makes sense, applies in general, or is generally accepted by
professionals (like me).
PointedEars
--
When all you know is jQuery, every problem looks $(olvable).
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