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Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184413 is a reply to message #184321]

Mon, 30 December 2013 21:36

Arved Sandstrom
Messages: 9
Registered: December 2013

Karma:

Junior Member

On 12/22/2013 08:11 PM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
> In article <%JGtu.29103$Wm1(dot)26832(at)fx17(dot)iad>,
> Daniel Pitts <newsgroup(dot)nospam(at)virtualinfinity(dot)net> wrote:
>
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>>
>> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs,
>> both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch systems to
>> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
>> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
>> libraries. Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
>> business code.
>>
>> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if they've
>> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they use.
>>
>> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>> * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>> * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around 2006)
>> * Straight JDBC. Not exactly an ORM :-)
>>
>> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after Hibernate,
>> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>>
>>
>> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did you
>> like and hate about each of them? I'm not trying to start a flame war,
>> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used them.
>>
>> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off applications to
>> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>>
>> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of changes
>> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>>
>> Thanks for your consideration,
>> Daniel.
>
> I don't like ORM utilities much because they rarely model all of the
> complex relationships and behaviors, for better or worse, that may exist
> in SQL. You end up spending at least as much time working around those
> limitations as time initially saved.
>
> Simpler data works fine in ORM, but simpler data is isn't the complex
> task ORM tries to solve.
>
> That leaves many ORM utilities as too enormous, too complex, too slow,
> and still a poor fit for SQL. I see ORM as potentially being an
> excellent fit for document stores but I have little experience with
> those.
>
To echo Arne's comment, an "excellent fit for document stores"??? How
so? If the document is well-modeled by a relational calculus, why model
it as a document? The current notion of a document is that of groups of
semi-structured or non-structured data that don't necessarily adhere to
any schema. Which is non-relational. There are fundamental differences here.

I haven't encountered the problems you have, apparently, with ORMs. Data
is complex, relational data is obviously just as complex, and any method
of querying or manipulating real relational data is often hard. And
considering major ORMs (not just Java), and the amount of educated
effort that has gone into them, there are not many people who are
well-advised to routinely use SQL directly if they have other
options...not unless they are RDBMS specialists, and that's what they do
for a living. Are you one? I'm not.

I'll say this: Java language limitations have hurt Java ORMs, and it's
not the fault of the ORM developers: I know a few of them. The JPA
Criteria API is a sign of the apocalypse. It's unfortunately informed by
folks who are both struggling with Java limitations and have experience
with native implementations. C# LINQ and Scala Squeryl are conceptually
light years ahead of Java ORMs.

AHS
--
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign:
that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
-- Jonathan Swift

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[Message index]

		ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Daniel Pitts on Sun, 22 December 2013 19:05
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Sun, 22 December 2013 19:46
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 22 December 2013 20:17
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Sun, 22 December 2013 20:38
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 22 December 2013 20:47
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:04
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:09
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:20
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:34
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 23 December 2013 01:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Michael Vilain on Mon, 23 December 2013 04:48
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 23 December 2013 12:58
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 03:46
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 30 December 2013 03:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:06
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:21
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 13:04
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:32
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:47
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 30 December 2013 21:23
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Doug Miller on Mon, 30 December 2013 19:45
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Ricardo Palomaes on Mon, 30 December 2013 18:20
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: The Natural Philosoph on Mon, 30 December 2013 18:34
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 19:27
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Marcel Müller on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:26
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:17
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Kevin McMurtrie on Mon, 23 December 2013 00:11
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:08
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Mon, 30 December 2013 21:36
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: The Natural Philosoph on Mon, 30 December 2013 22:13
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Tue, 31 December 2013 02:09
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: The Natural Philosoph on Tue, 31 December 2013 11:30
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 31 December 2013 13:11
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Chris Uppal on Wed, 01 January 2014 14:20
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 03:05
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Thu, 02 January 2014 03:48
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 02:57
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Thu, 02 January 2014 08:04
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 02:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Thu, 02 January 2014 08:09
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 01:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Fri, 03 January 2014 13:18
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 21:45
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 23 December 2013 06:38
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 23 December 2013 12:57
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 23 December 2013 23:11
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 24 December 2013 00:59
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Tue, 24 December 2013 01:14
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:02
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:40
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Mon, 23 December 2013 12:25
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:27
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Mon, 30 December 2013 13:38
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Daniel Pitts on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:36
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Tue, 31 December 2013 00:26
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 03:23
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 03:19
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Thu, 02 January 2014 11:36
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Daniel Pitts on Thu, 02 January 2014 17:36
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Thu, 02 January 2014 20:06
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Chris Uppal on Fri, 03 January 2014 14:48
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 01:59
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 02:07
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 02:10
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Tue, 31 December 2013 13:44
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: leif.roar on Mon, 23 December 2013 13:22
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:20
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Wanja Gayk on Tue, 24 December 2013 11:28
		c By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 24 December 2013 13:49
		Re: c By: Qu0ll on Tue, 24 December 2013 22:35
		Re: c By: Graham Hobbs on Wed, 25 December 2013 00:35
		Re: c By: Jerry Stuckle on Wed, 25 December 2013 05:08
		Re: c By: Qu0ll on Wed, 25 December 2013 06:46
		Re: c By: Graham Hobbs on Wed, 25 December 2013 14:24
		Re: c By: Qu0ll on Wed, 25 December 2013 09:41
		[EOD] Re: c By: Wanja Gayk on Wed, 25 December 2013 10:15
		Re: [EOD] Re: c By: Qu0ll on Wed, 25 December 2013 12:29
		Re: [EOD] Re: c By: The Natural Philosoph on Wed, 25 December 2013 12:48
		Re: c By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 03:51
		Re: c By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 13:03
		Re: c By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:40
		Re: c By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:46
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Wed, 25 December 2013 17:56
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: jebblue on Tue, 31 December 2013 16:52
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Evan Platt on Tue, 31 December 2013 19:50
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Tue, 31 December 2013 21:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: jebblue on Wed, 01 January 2014 01:33
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Thu, 02 January 2014 21:37
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 02:46
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Gordon Levi on Thu, 02 January 2014 08:34
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 01:43
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Gordon Levi on Fri, 03 January 2014 09:19
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 20:43

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