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Re: Operator precedence [message #185015 is a reply to message #185014]

Mon, 24 February 2014 04:49

Ben Bacarisse
Messages: 82
Registered: November 2013

Karma:

Member

Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net> writes:

> On 2/23/2014 6:36 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 2/23/14, 4:34 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>> On 2/23/2014 2:42 PM, GS wrote:
>>>> This shows one of the major problems with PHP: there is no formal
>>>> language
>>>> definition, you have to go by examples in the help file to intuit what is
>>>> or is not valid. Where is the BNF definition of the language? There is
>>>> none
>>>> AFAICT.
>>>>
>>> Incorrect. There is a formal definition, as indicated in the doc at
>>> www.php.net.
>>>
>> Do you have a pointer to where "expression" is precisely defined (other
>> than reading code).
>
> Try any Introduction to Programming book. Documentation (not just
> PHP) does not normally define commonly used terms.

I don't think it's that clear cut. Expressions are built from
operators, but is ',' an operator in PHP? It appears in the operator
precedence table but it isn't an operator in an sense that would
normally be understood by someone familiar with these terms.

<snip>
>> That doesn't mean it isn't powerful, or useful, or the right tool to use
>> in some places, but does say that it lacks some formal rigor.
>
> Once again, incorrect.
>
>> The lack of formal rigor says that there are some questions which just
>> can't be answered by reading the language documentation.
>
> It can if you have a basic understanding of programming.

Again, I don't think it's that simple. How would you determine if the
following program is permitted and, if it is, what it does?

if (false) label: else echo "else\n";
goto label;

You could try it, of course, but that's hardly very formal.

>> The original question was a good example of this. the assignment
>> operator is described as having a precedence (fairly low) just like all
>> other operators, with some vague comments that it is done in a way that
>> certain things just work. In comments on looking at the code, the left
>> operand of assignment is a variable, and not an expression, effectively
>> giving assignment a very high precedence to the left, and a very low
>> precedence to the right (if the grammar even does end up being actually
>> describable precisely with precedence). To my knowledge, this detail is
>> NOT formally presented in the documentation.
>
> No, the original question shows a basic lack of knowledge of terms
> used in programming. As does your argument.

This puzzles me. What basic knowledge would have cleared up the
original question?

The assignment operators in PHP have, in effect, different precedences
on the left and the right (a feature that some languages flaunt) but
that is not common and certainly not part of what I'd call basic
knowledge. The documentation gives one example of this peculiarity, but
that does not clear the matter up conclusively. For example, in some
languages permit assignment to the result of a conditional expression,
but I think it's hard to tell from the documentation what these two do:

$bool ? $a : $b = 42;
($bool ? $a : $b) = 42;

The operator precedence table suggests that both mean the same thing,
but they don't. I don't think the meaning of either is easily
determined from the documentation.

<snip>
--
Ben.

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[Message index]

		Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Sun, 23 February 2014 17:03
		Re: Operator precedence By: GS on Sun, 23 February 2014 19:42
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Sun, 23 February 2014 20:23
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 23 February 2014 21:34
		Re: Operator precedence By: Richard Damon on Sun, 23 February 2014 23:36
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 24 February 2014 02:09
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Mon, 24 February 2014 04:49
		Re: Operator precedence By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Mon, 24 February 2014 11:56
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Mon, 24 February 2014 16:38
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Mon, 24 February 2014 21:25
		Re: Operator precedence By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Mon, 24 February 2014 23:38
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 00:07
		Re: Operator precedence By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Tue, 25 February 2014 00:37
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 01:12
		Re: Operator precedence By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Tue, 25 February 2014 02:29
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 18:41
		Re: Operator precedence By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Tue, 25 February 2014 18:55
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 20:36
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Tue, 25 February 2014 03:08
		Re: Operator precedence By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Tue, 25 February 2014 03:17
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Tue, 25 February 2014 04:45
		Re: Operator precedence By: GS on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:45
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 24 February 2014 12:00
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Mon, 24 February 2014 17:11
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 24 February 2014 19:27
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 00:25
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 01:40
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Mon, 24 February 2014 21:23
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 24 February 2014 21:45
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Tue, 25 February 2014 04:32
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 04:47
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Tue, 25 February 2014 16:56
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 18:59
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 19:19
		Re: Operator precedence By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Tue, 25 February 2014 19:43
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:02
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:01
		Object constructors/destructors (was: Operator precedence) By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:19
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:32
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:55
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 22:01
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Adam Harvey on Tue, 25 February 2014 23:22
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Wed, 26 February 2014 02:10
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Wed, 26 February 2014 20:10
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Wed, 26 February 2014 21:01
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Wed, 26 February 2014 21:59
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Wed, 26 February 2014 22:19
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Wed, 26 February 2014 22:39
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Thu, 27 February 2014 03:30
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Thu, 27 February 2014 17:28
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Thu, 27 February 2014 21:09
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Fri, 28 February 2014 13:52
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Fri, 28 February 2014 14:08
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Fri, 28 February 2014 15:52
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Fri, 28 February 2014 16:03
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Thu, 27 February 2014 00:00
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Thu, 27 February 2014 03:39
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Thomas 'PointedEars' on Thu, 27 February 2014 17:29
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Thu, 27 February 2014 21:14
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 23:18
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Wed, 26 February 2014 02:08
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Richard Damon on Wed, 26 February 2014 12:50
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Wed, 26 February 2014 13:44
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Richard Damon on Thu, 27 February 2014 04:49
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Thu, 27 February 2014 13:25
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Richard Damon on Sat, 01 March 2014 17:56
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Sat, 01 March 2014 19:22
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Richard Damon on Sun, 02 March 2014 19:28
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 02 March 2014 20:42
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Richard Damon on Sun, 02 March 2014 22:14
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 02 March 2014 22:48
		Re: Object constructors/destructors By: Tim Streater on Sun, 02 March 2014 23:05
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:08
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 21:29
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Tue, 25 February 2014 23:15
		Re: Operator precedence By: Richard Damon on Tue, 25 February 2014 03:41
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 25 February 2014 04:59
		Re: Operator precedence By: Richard Damon on Sat, 01 March 2014 18:39
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Sat, 01 March 2014 19:29
		Re: Operator precedence By: Richard Damon on Sun, 02 March 2014 20:22
		Re: Operator precedence By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 02 March 2014 20:49
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Tue, 25 February 2014 18:15
		Re: Operator precedence By: Ben Bacarisse on Sun, 23 February 2014 20:56
		Re: Operator precedence By: Christoph Michael Bec on Mon, 24 February 2014 13:28

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