| Karma [message #3711] |
Thu, 04 July 2002 17:56  |
coppper
Messages: 4
Registered: July 2002
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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hi,
there is a user ranking system but it's very primitve from my point of view (and i know this is open-source and i can make any change i like)
i downloaded karma hack for vbulletin and in its readme it says following:
Karma Features
1. Admin
- Set points for each
~ newthread
~ reply
~ points for thread owner if thread's view exceeded certain number.
~ extra points to user from admin/mod
~ extra points for thread owner if the thread's reply more than certain number.
~ search members by karma points.
~ create redeem items for members to redeem when they reach have enough karma points.
- Admin/Moderator can also add/delete points to user who posts useful thread or nonsense.
- Admin can set auto ban feature to on or off. If this feature is set to on, users' karma points that
exceed the negative point admin set to, will be banned from posting or replying threads.
2. User
- User can comment on other people's post and if they agree that post, the user will get karma points
for that. If user disagree with what they post, their karma points will be deducted.
- User can earn karma points when they post new thread, replies, many people view their thread, many
people reply their thread.
- User can also earn karma points from administrator or moderator if they post useful thread.
- Their points wil be deducted if they post nonsense.
- User can view the highest karma points members to lowest points.
- User can redeem items when they have enough karma points.
These can be added to fudforum to make more feature-complete.
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| Re: Karma [message #3712 is a reply to message #3711] |
Thu, 04 July 2002 18:03  |
Ilia
Messages: 13241
Registered: January 2002
Karma: 0
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Senior Member
Administrator
Core Developer |
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I've considered adding Karma system before, back in the 1.X days, however after reviewing how it works I could not see a 'good' way to implement it.
Many karma hacks, often simply add the ability for users go gain/lose karma, which itself does nothing except show an indicator of how much of it they got.
The hack you've described seems to be a little more complete, since it tries to do something with the karma. Although, I am not sure how useful that would be in a forum enviroment, whilst in a weblog enviroment it is generally used to 'highlight' certain items.
Discussion on this topic is certainly welcome and appriciated, but at the moment I am still not entirely clear about 'karma' sort of functionality.
FUDforum Core Developer
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| Re: Karma [message #3762 is a reply to message #3712] |
Fri, 05 July 2002 12:11 |
coppper
Messages: 4
Registered: July 2002
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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| prottoss wrote on Thu, 04 July 2002 21:03 |
The hack you've described seems to be a little more complete, since it tries to do something with the karma. Although, I am not sure how useful that would be in a forum enviroment, whilst in a weblog enviroment it is generally used to 'highlight' certain items.
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imho, karma is a necessity for every forum package. because it encourages members to participate. for example, you can give a gift above a certain point. so people in your "community" probably try to gain points which means more posts. technology itself is not sufficient to create a community which is the main target for a forum software. there are lots of forum software available free or not, but they almost all think only the technology, not the community. people visit a forum (or a site) if they have a good reason to do that. one of the reasons is to be gifted for participation. more participation means earning more. all of us know "build it they will come" is not correct anymore, because people have _tons of_ different choices for free forums. please look at, if still available, compaq support community for a true community.
another point is that ubbthreads have good hack for front page. it consists of top threads, top poster, most popular threads etc not directly the forums available. but it lacks such a karma hack. ubb threads only have rating users/articles not a exact karma system.
fudforum seems to be most professional forum script around. but it lacks some community related items, such as karma hack, or zapping of forums (maybe a kind of this is available in fudforum, i'm not sure). remember the "age" concept in the old BBS days. haven't you ever put tintin to increase your age 
these all are proofs to implement a karma hack or any other community related features. karma is the first one and here anyone can send his "community" related items.
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| Re: Karma [message #3764 is a reply to message #3762] |
Fri, 05 July 2002 12:20 |
Ilia
Messages: 13241
Registered: January 2002
Karma: 0
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I agree that 'Karma' generally is a community building tool, since it encourages participation, although some people tend to start Karma-whoring in attempt to elevate their status. For example, if a forum gives karma points to popular threads, that would encourage people to start flamewars in order to raise their karma level.
I am not against a Karma system, however before I consider implementing I would like to know of a good way to implement it, so that it is useful tool for forum users and not just arbitrarily assigned 'points' that you can gain through frequent usage.
There is also the consideration of speed, properly implemented Karma system would have numerous rules, which would cause some performance degradation, therefor it should be something each forum administrator can choose to enable or disable on their forum, since not everyone may want/need this feature.
FUDforum Core Developer
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| Re: Karma [message #3776 is a reply to message #3764] |
Fri, 05 July 2002 17:43 |
coppper
Messages: 4
Registered: July 2002
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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of course, but if you look at www.certifydev.com under free scripts section you can download karma and see their implementation.
your point is very necessary but i posted:
- Admin/Moderator can also add/delete points to user who posts useful thread or nonsense.
- Admin can set auto ban feature to on or off. If this feature is set to on, users' karma points that
exceed the negative point admin set to, will be banned from posting or replying threads.
so you have complete control. even a person write a script that posts a topic every 1 hour. there are moderators in the forums to moderate. they delete non-sense or flame-war topics.
for the performance point of view thread/reply/thread view calculations may be done hourly or (selectable) X-hour periods even via a cron job or a php file. another way is with a enable/disable switch, users concerning about performance switch off karma.
all i want is make the very professionally written fudforum to have more community related features.
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| Re: Karma [message #3785 is a reply to message #3776] |
Fri, 05 July 2002 20:31 |
Ilia
Messages: 13241
Registered: January 2002
Karma: 0
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Senior Member
Administrator
Core Developer |
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| coppper wrote on Fri, 05 July 2002 13:43 |
- Admin/Moderator can also add/delete points to user who posts useful thread or nonsense.
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Sounds fine, but in reality presents many problems. It is very hard for moderators to track actions of users outside of their own forums, since they are not moderators there and there are only 1-3 admins per forum in most cases. On a large forum just keeping track of messages in hard, but now you suggest keeping track of user actions as well?
That sounds somewhat impractical, especially when you consider a large forum.
| Quote: |
- Admin can set auto ban feature to on or off. If this feature is set to on, users' karma points that
exceed the negative point admin set to, will be banned from posting or replying threads.
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That could work, BUT what if 3 users decide they don't like 4th user and continually assign negative karma points to that user. Those 3, who are just regular users eventually would be able to get the 4th person banned as the result of their actions.
[qoute]
so you have complete control. even a person write a script that posts a topic every 1 hour. there are moderators in the forums to moderate. they delete non-sense or flame-war topics.
[/quote]
Automatic deletion is VERY BAD idea, since once something is removed it is gone, heck the admin won't even know it was removed unless he had seen the thread prior to removal.
Although, this concept can be slightly modified to make a 'low karma trigger' that would report low karma threads to moderators & admins automatically.
| Quote: |
for the performance point of view thread/reply/thread view calculations may be done hourly or (selectable) X-hour periods even via a cron job or a php file. another way is with a enable/disable switch, users concerning about performance switch off karma.
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Cron is not an option, since windows users do not have cron and many vhost accounts to do offer access to cron. So, it would need to be done realtime inside an IF.
When I think of a karma system I always think of Slashdot, I've actually read up a rather large chapter on how Karma is used inside slashcode. It is a very complex system, which despite its complexity and much testing still has its fair share of issues.
On Slashdot the karma system allows certain users to assign certain amount of karma points at certain times. Based on the given karma points users can establish filters that would result in messages with a karma level lower then specified from not being displayed.
This process of filtering messages is rather slow, because there can be a huge number of combinations possible. This is why slashcode generates static pages with default settings for all non registered users and only does dynamic pages for registered users. They can do that since the majority of the browsing audience in weblogs are generally anonymous readers, while on 90% of forums majority of the audience are registered users.
FUDforum Core Developer
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| Re: Karma [message #3847 is a reply to message #3845] |
Sun, 07 July 2002 22:45 |
Ilia
Messages: 13241
Registered: January 2002
Karma: 0
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Senior Member
Administrator
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I do not see how Karma system would make a forum more professional, infact I suspect for business applications it would be an entirely useless feature. Karma system as I understand from sites that use such systems right now is mostly aimed at website operators who try to give incenstive to users to participate on the forum.
The biggest problem I have with a Karma system is how to implement in such a way, that people who wish to disable won't suffer ANY speed penalties associated with having such a system.
FUDforum Core Developer
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| Re: Karma [message #3854 is a reply to message #3847] |
Sun, 07 July 2002 23:02 |
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james
Messages: 65
Registered: June 2002
Karma: 0
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Member |
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By professional I meant full-featured; I agree completely that it would be more of an incentive system, rather than a useful one for businesses.
I am really novice at PHP, but I would suspect that if by enabling Karma you generated the database entry (or file, however it works), and by disabling Karma you totally removed all references to the database (or file), you could keep the speed hit to those disabling it to a minimum. It would mean that to disable Karma would totally destroy all data, but I believe that people wouldn't switch back and forth often anyways.
If you are referring to the PHP code, is it possible to put virtually all references to karma into its own file, and only call on that file if Karma is enabled? You would probably only need 3-6 extra lines of code in each file, increasing the size by a few kilobytes, but not decreasing the speed very much for users who disable it.
Please note that these are suggestions from a PHP beginner, and may be completely flawed in their logic.
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| Re: Karma [message #3856 is a reply to message #3854] |
Sun, 07 July 2002 23:16 |
Ilia
Messages: 13241
Registered: January 2002
Karma: 0
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Senior Member
Administrator
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Not that easy, because if Karma is in place people should be able to filter messages by Karma, therefor SQL queries which do message retrieval need to be modified.
FUDforum Core Developer
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| Re: Karma [message #3888 is a reply to message #3856] |
Mon, 08 July 2002 20:30 |
coppper
Messages: 4
Registered: July 2002
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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| prottoss wrote on Mon, 08 July 2002 02:16 |
Not that easy, because if Karma is in place people should be able to filter messages by Karma, therefor SQL queries which do message retrieval need to be modified.
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let me clear some points: especially for the performance issues the calculation may be done in periods like every one hour o every X hour.
IMHO, karma is a professional feature if you can have a chance to visit the gigantic compaq's (though now owned by hp) support forums. they have a karma system.
in large forums there must be a per-forum moderator. if small then one or two person can do the job. every mdoerator, of course, responsible for his own forum. this is natural.
every but every good thing can be used in a bad way, as karma is not an exception. if those 3 persons are doing bad things that person can warn moderators or admin if he wants to do. because moderators moderate the forum. they delete all non-sense, off-topic posts.
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| Re: Karma [message #3889 is a reply to message #3888] |
Mon, 08 July 2002 20:46 |
Ilia
Messages: 13241
Registered: January 2002
Karma: 0
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Senior Member
Administrator
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Well, doing things every X amount of minutes/seconds/hours in a forum enviroment is somewhat difficult. The reason is like I've explained before is that I cannot relly that the user has access to cron deamon, therefor the processing needs to be done somewhere in the forum.
That itself is an interesting thing, because there are no events on the forum that occur every X time units.
You are correct that large forum often have 2-3 moderators per forum, however those moderators often are busy as it is just moderating a forum which may have as many as 10000 messages posted on a daily basis, without needing to monitor user's karma.
My idea should Karma system be implemented is do so in a manner that it would be useful to the users aka the ability to filter messages/threads based on their karma level. Ensure that there is no performance loss through the addition of such functionality.
FUDforum Core Developer
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| Re: Karma [message #4161 is a reply to message #3711] |
Wed, 17 July 2002 09:55 |
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Anonymous
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hi again,
prottoss:
karma system that i suggest and you do are different. you are talking about moderation like feature. but my goal is to increase participation by giving incentives from a certain karma point. what i understand from your last post (to me) we're not discussing the same thing.
as you said /. karma system somewhat complex implementation of that may be hard. but of course it may be done.
i found an interesting software crond replacement (maybe not has all the features crond has): http://www.gemini1consulting.com/tekhelp/online_manuals/phpcron/html/
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| Re: Karma [message #4163 is a reply to message #4161] |
Wed, 17 July 2002 11:19 |
Ilia
Messages: 13241
Registered: January 2002
Karma: 0
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Senior Member
Administrator
Core Developer |
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PHPcron is a nifty tool however it requires the client to have a php CGI binary available on the system. Many do not have one, so reliance on it would introduce unnecessary dependencies.
FUDforum Core Developer
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