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FUD needs a new default style [message #6183]

Sat, 05 October 2002 05:44

Matt

Messages: 2
Registered: October 2002
Location: Michigan

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Junior Member

I've come to this site a few times in the past, but I would just leave thinking FUD was just another garbage wannabe forum coded by some 12 year old, like so many forums out there. My opinion was based mainly from the look of the default template.

But today, just because I was bored and had nothing to do, I installed FUD on my local machine. So what's the verdict? FUD is great! It has so many features in the AdminCP that other free boards lack. FUD has to be the most feature rich free bulletin board on the net, next to Invision Board.

So that leads me to ask, why the hell does FUD use this god awful template?! It's just terrible. You'd attract a lot more visitors if you gave FUD a better default style, because the current one will just scare people off.

Seriously, change this template...I beg you. I hate to see a great forum like FUD get forgotten because of it's ugly template. Sad

Sad

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Re: FUD needs a new default style [message #6184 is a reply to message #6183]

Sat, 05 October 2002 09:34

Olliver

Messages: 443
Registered: March 2002

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Senior Member

Matt wrote on Sat, 05 October 2002 07:44

I've come to this site a few times in the past, but I would just leave thinking FUD was just another garbage wannabe forum coded by some 12 year old, like so many forums out there. My opinion was based mainly from the look of the default template.

U judge a forum by its default template? There are people out there who also take a look on its functions before using it Wink

Wink

.

Quote:

But today, just because I was bored and had nothing to do, I installed FUD on my local machine. So what's the verdict? FUD is great! It has so many features in the AdminCP that other free boards lack. FUD has to be the most feature rich free bulletin board on the net, next to Invision Board.

So what?

Quote:

So that leads me to ask, why the hell does FUD use this god awful template?! It's just terrible.

Well, and I do like it. Now u got two different opinions. And there are a lot more people out there which u didn't ask...

Quote:

You'd attract a lot more visitors if you gave FUD a better default style, because the current one will just scare people off.

Can u prove ur claim? How will u know that people are scared off? Only because u don't like the forum's style? There are many people out there, and some of them even dare to have a different opinion, so u can't speak in their name.

Quote:

Seriously, change this template...I beg you. I hate to see a great forum like FUD get forgotten because of it's ugly template. Sad

Sad

More seriously: U don't like the default style, u know how to change it. So what keeps u from creating a different template? Only because u suffer with this style this doesn't necessarily mean the rest of the world will do as well.
bye
Ken

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Re: FUD needs a new default style [message #6187 is a reply to message #6183]

Sat, 05 October 2002 13:12

Ilia

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Well, I am a programmer and not a designer, the layout itself is a refinment of something I've came up with when the forum was written. Until some more graphically inclined person offers a better solution, this will be the layout used.

FUDforum Core Developer

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Re: FUD needs a new default style [message #6211 is a reply to message #6183]

Sat, 05 October 2002 22:21

Matt

Messages: 2
Registered: October 2002
Location: Michigan

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Junior Member

Quote:

Can u prove ur claim? How will u know that people are scared off? Only because u don't like the forum's style? There are many people out there, and some of them even dare to have a different opinion, so u can't speak in their name.

You know, I didn't come here to bash FUD, I like it...I'm just giving some feedback. And I do judge forums by the default template to some extent, as do most other people. If FUD has such an amazingly good template that everyone loves except for me, then explain to me why this forum is nearly dead?

This being a good or bad style is not a matter of opinion really, it is bad. And having a good looking style does attract users, take phpbb2 or Invision Board for example. phpbb2 lacks so many basic features, yet it's extremely popular.

Quote:

Well, I am a programmer and not a designer, the layout itself is a refinment of something I've came up with when the forum was written. Until some more graphically inclined person offers a better solution, this will be the layout used.

Maybe you should put out some "help wanted" ads on the main site...there are plenty of skilled people out there who would be eager to help. Smile

Smile

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Re: FUD needs a new default style [message #6221 is a reply to message #6211]

Sun, 06 October 2002 15:57

valiant

Messages: 80
Registered: September 2002
Location: Zurich

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Matt schrieb am Son, 06 Oktober 2002 00:21

If FUD has such an amazingly good template that everyone loves except for me, then explain to me why this forum is nearly dead?

PHPBB, Invision Board, UBB, VBulletin,... they are all older. They've had a long time to get known while FUD Forum is still in development.

Matt schrieb am Son, 06 Oktober 2002 00:21

This being a good or bad style is not a matter of opinion really, it is bad.

The default style is in fact a little bit too gray in gray. It lacks of colors and contrast, but hey, if you can do it better, I'm sure protoss would appreciate a better default style.

As for functionality you could put buttons "submit", "preview" directly under the message box. I did that on my phpbb2 forum and it looks better and all users like it. They're the most important buttons and it doesn't make sense if the attachment thing and all the radio buttons which are almost never used directly under the message box.

Thanks and keep up the good work - Andy

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Re: FUD needs a new default style [message #6225 is a reply to message #6211]

Sun, 06 October 2002 18:37

basse

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Registered: March 2002
Location: Åbo, Finland

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Den s�n, 06 oktober 2002 01:21 skrev Matt:

This being a good or bad style is not a matter of opinion really, it is bad. And having a good looking style does attract users, take phpbb2 or Invision Board for example. phpbb2 lacks so many basic features, yet it's extremely popular.

So now you offer us your ultimate answer to the question of taste? Other people say what they think about something, and then you come and tell you how things really are. Is that it?

If you can't back your claim up with some solid facts we are all better off without your remarks. Just telling us that it is bad without specifying what the problem really is isn't helpful at all. It is just very annoying.

You do now have the opportunity of telling us exactly what it is that is bad about the default template. We are listening, for a while. I bet you'll have a hard time proving your statement...

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Re: FUD needs a new default style [message #6226 is a reply to message #6225]

Sun, 06 October 2002 19:20

Olliver

Messages: 443
Registered: March 2002

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Senior Member

Hi Basse,
long time no see Smile

Smile

. There is a reason why this forum isn't crowded at all. Simply because the forum is running smooth on most locations, hence there's no need for seeking advice with installation issues Wink

Wink

. Some people have stated this already. A crowded support forum also means there are a lot of unresolved issues. Irrational assumptions hardly lead to a useful solution, that's why I don't believe that our friend will deliver the ultimate proof. Funny to see some ppl making themselves believe they would be the savior of problems no one has ever taken notice of Smile

Smile

. This will be my last statement in this thread, to avoid more annoyance I ve already put this bloke into my killfile and I recommend u doing the same. Good to have such a ignore function. Thnx for including it prottoss Wink

Wink

C u
Olliver

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Re: FUD needs a new default style [message #6246 is a reply to message #6226]

Sun, 06 October 2002 22:30

Ilia

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Well, there is also something else to consider. Many forums add a pretty interface that makes their layout look like a colourful child's toy designed to prevent the child's attention from wondering off to the next toy. IMHO this type of design detracts somewhat from the forum, since the focus of an online community are the people and what they have to say rather then pretty colourful buttons, distracting color schemes etc...
That is not to say pretty layout does not have its place, but many people my self included, prefer somewhat bland layout that do not distract the eye from important things.

Ultimately, if someones wishes to conribute their skills towards making a more 'eye candy' design for FUDforum they are more then welcome to, there is a very good chance their work may even become the default template. However, the current 'bland' design will still have its place for people who prefer content over color.

FUDforum Core Developer

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Re: FUD needs a new default style [message #6252 is a reply to message #6246]

Sun, 06 October 2002 22:45

valiant

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Registered: September 2002
Location: Zurich

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Quote:

As for functionality you could put buttons "submit", "preview" directly under the message box. I did that on my phpbb2 forum and it looks better and all users like it. They're the most important buttons and it doesn't make sense if the attachment thing and all the radio buttons which are almost never used directly under the message box.

just bumped my own message...

IMO the post button should be directly under the message box.

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Re: FUD needs a new default style [message #6254 is a reply to message #6252]

Sun, 06 October 2002 22:48

Ilia

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I tried doing this at one point but is was rather acquard and I cannot say I liked the way it looked.

FUDforum Core Developer

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Re: FUD needs a new default style [message #6256 is a reply to message #6254]

Sun, 06 October 2002 22:50

valiant

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Registered: September 2002
Location: Zurich

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what about functionallity comes first, then the look?

IMO it even looks better the other wa around, but I can do that in my theme...

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Re: FUD needs a new default style [message #6257 is a reply to message #6256]

Sun, 06 October 2002 22:55

Ilia

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Well, functionality is certainly important, but consider this. Following the standard designed conventions nearly every single form has the buttons alligned to the right. Which makes it easy to see and find them, especially on busy forms such as post form, which is full of various controls.

You can modify how the buttons are positioned on your forum fairly easily by modifying the post.tmpl template.
Simply move the last row
'<tr class="RowStyleA"><td class="GenText" align="right" colspan=2>...' above '{TEMPLATE-DATA: file_attachments}' inside the 'POST_PAGE' section.

FUDforum Core Developer

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Re: FUD needs a new default style [message #6261 is a reply to message #6257]

Sun, 06 October 2002 23:39

valiant

Messages: 80
Registered: September 2002
Location: Zurich

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sure sure,

but IMO you shouldn't have to scroll for the standard message.

take a look at my phpbb board, I moved the post button where it should be by default IMO: http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~andress/nei.ch/phpBB2/posting.php?mode=newtopic&a mp;f=2
All the features less often used are below.

(I'll be using your forum for a more important application, so don't blame me for using phpbb Wink

Wink

).

In your default theme, you wast half of the screen (the right side). What about moving the post button up and the smilies to the left or whatever. It

Tabulator order:
Or at least you could alter the "tab" order so that I could jump with one tabulator click from the message box to the preview or post button without scrolling (as in my modded phpbb forum).

Javascript insertion of Tags:
It's not obvious to look at the bottom of internet explorer to see a explanation of the insert icons for the fud forum tags. IMO they're not all self explanatory hence you could do it similar to phpBB2 and place a explanation field below (not much work, as seen here: http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~andress/nei.ch/phpBB2/posting.php?mode=newtopic&a mp;f=2).

good night - andy

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Re: FUD needs a new default style [message #6264 is a reply to message #6261]

Mon, 07 October 2002 00:54

Ilia

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Registered: January 2002

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The tab index is a very good idea, I already use it to allow quick tabbing from subject directly to the message box. I will add more tab orders to make the next tab take the user to preview message and from there to submit reply.

The buttons for formatting are very simular to the ones used in just about every single word processort, mail client and so on. In fact earlier versions had some text help appear on mouse overs. However, I had recieved a number of complaints that I took to heart about that. The reason for the complain was that the 'help' text blocks other buttons and is superfulious for buttons that 99% of computer users will recognize from prior experience.

Could you show me a screen shot of how the post form looks, your forum does not allow me access to the posted URL without registering.

FUDforum Core Developer

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Re: FUD needs a new default style [message #6268 is a reply to message #6183]

Mon, 07 October 2002 02:41

esm2002

Messages: 339
Registered: May 2002
Location: Atlanta Georgia

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I tried to look at your msg board but I would have had to register.

As for the issue of functionality vs "conventional standards" I have broached and lost that discussion two or three times. Take a look at what the standard conventions produce: http://fud.prohost.org/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=889&rid=177&S=a 8bb149c1318697b075767a1f3e42126#msg_4897. Now try posting a message; find the preview and submit button. So much for the standard. This may be more the exception than the rule but...( also notice that the preview area is at the top of the screen and the submit button is a click or two down on the vertical scroll bar and maybe even click or two to the right on the horizontal scroll bar )

I guess the "standard" may contribute to the generally accepted view that the keyboard commanders are faster than the mousers 'cause the poor mousers have to enter data on the left side of the screen and then drag the mouse pointer all the way from the left side of the screen to the right side of the screen before they can click that button.

The standard should be that the buttons should be located as close to the data entry area as reasonably practical taking into consideration that if inside a table with a percentage width that table can "grow" to the right of the monitor.

As I type this the, upload file button is just under one inch from this line whil the 6 inches away and the submit reply button is 9 inches away ( hey, my undergraduate degree is in Industrial Management ). And the "standard" says it is "better" to move my mouse 9 inches vs 1 inch???? Time to change the standard!

This does in fact seem to be a somwhat common practice ( but see invisionboard.com....to locate a button in an out-of-the-way place. An efficiency expert might think this inefficient. I did; until I looked at what my mouse was moving over...COMMERCIAL ADS. Now I understand why "they" set the "standard" they way they did.

But this is a minor issue ( although in the link above it was a major annoyance with my 19in screen ) when compared to the overall great functionality of this software....and this is great software.

Just my dos centavos. no comment required....just venting...

Gene
"The older I get, the more I admire competence, just simple competence in any field from adultery to zoology."

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Re: FUD needs a new default style [message #6274 is a reply to message #6264]

Mon, 07 October 2002 12:32

valiant

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prottoss schrieb am Mon, 07 Oktober 2002 02:54

I will add more tab orders to make the next tab take the user to preview message and from there to submit reply.

great

Smile

prottoss schrieb am Mon, 07 Oktober 2002 02:54

The buttons for formatting are very simular to the ones used in just about every single word processort, mail client and so on. In fact earlier versions had some text help appear on mouse overs. However, I had recieved a number of complaints that I took to heart about that. The reason for the complain was that the 'help' text blocks other buttons and is superfulious for buttons that 99% of computer users will recognize from prior experience.

Actually all of them are self-explanatory but the "quote" and "code" icon. It's ok, don't improve it Smile

Smile

prottoss schrieb am Mon, 07 Oktober 2002 02:54

Could you show me a screen shot of how the post form looks, your forum does not allow me access to the posted URL without registering.

Ah, I forgot about that. Here's a link to a Testing area similar to yours Wink

Wink

http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~andress/nei.ch/phpBB2/posting.php?mode=newtopic&a mp;f=9

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Re: FUD needs a new default style [message #6277 is a reply to message #6274]

Mon, 07 October 2002 14:11

Ilia

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Thanks for the screenshot.
To be honest unless I was looking for those buttons where you told me I would've missed them completely. That could be in part due to the fact I cannot read the language used on the forum. However, I do believe the placment you are using makes the user have too look for those buttons. IMHO that is not a good approach, since preview/submit are fairly 'critical' buttons that should be easily visible on the form.

FUDforum Core Developer

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Re: FUD needs a new default style [message #6282 is a reply to message #6268]

Mon, 07 October 2002 14:26

Ilia

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Well, here is my thinking on the matter. What's better a clearly visible button 9 inches away (which really depens on your resolution, on my 1280x1024 it is only about 4 inches away) or a button 1 or 2 inches away that you can miss.
People using keyboards won't really care of tab order is properly setup, since they'd simply tab to the button, distance is of no relavence to them.
IMHO it is better to have a clearly visible button a little farther away, rather then a button you can easily miss closer.

Needless to say that is just MY opinion, if you can show me how you can accomplish putting the button closer and yet make it clearly visible, I'd gladly go along with such a suggestion.

FUDforum Core Developer

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Re: FUD needs a new default style [message #6285 is a reply to message #6277]

Mon, 07 October 2002 15:27

valiant

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sarcasm leeds to anger, anger to hatred and hatred to suffering! Wink

Wink

anyway, "Vorschau" is the preview button and "Absenden" the submit button.

1024x768 is THE resolution. a website should be browsable with 640x480 too, but it should look good for 1024x768 and higher resolutions.

if the submit and preview buttons are directly under the message box, you won't miss them, believe me. if they're the last buttons I won't miss'em too, but I've to scroll and scroll...

it's just that I don't like that absolute vertical alignement of your "post" page. you could place some options at the right/left of the message box.

cya - andy

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Re: FUD needs a new default style [message #6288 is a reply to message #6285]

Mon, 07 October 2002 16:26

Ilia

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Putting more data on left & right of the message box will cause problems for people with small screen resolution. And I refuse to make the message box smaller since it is THE CORE of the form. Heck, I'd make it bigger if I could, but I cannot due to people using small resolutions.

FUDforum Core Developer

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Re: FUD needs a new default style [message #8741 is a reply to message #6187]

Thu, 20 February 2003 10:19

Anonymous

I dont think FUD needs a new default layout at all. It looks a bit plain, admittedly, but that's a good thing. Default should be neutral so it fits with everyone's tastes.
What FUD really needs is a few easily-accessible themes that you can choose after you've installed the forum.
Even if these are simple colour changes it would be a great feature that gives more than it costs to produce.

*Suggestion*
What the FUD guys could do to help here is provide a means of importing (and exporting) themes easily. I'd like to download a theme from the site, copy it to my site and install it as easily as the forum.

And yes, I will post one when I finish tinkering with it, and no, I'm not a graphic designer so don't expect too much from it ;-)

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