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Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184382 is a reply to message #184320]

Mon, 30 December 2013 03:46

Arne Vajhøj
Messages: 27
Registered: December 2013

Karma:

Junior Member

On 12/22/2013 4:34 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 12/22/2013 4:20 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/22/2013 4:09 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>> On 12/22/2013 4:04 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 12/22/2013 3:47 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> > On 12/22/2013 3:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> >> On 12/22/2013 3:17 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> >>> On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>>> >>>> Hey everyone,
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various
>>>> >>>> ORMs,
>>>> >>>> both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch systems to
>>>> >>>> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
>>>> >>>> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
>>>> >>>> libraries. Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
>>>> >>>> business code.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if
>>>> >>>> they've
>>>> >>>> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they
>>>> >>>> use.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>>>> >>>> * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>>>> >>>> * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around
>>>> >>>> 2006)
>>>> >>>> * Straight JDBC. Not exactly an ORM :-)
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after
>>>> >>>> Hibernate,
>>>> >>>> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what
>>>> >>>> did
>>>> >>>> you
>>>> >>>> like and hate about each of them? I'm not trying to start a flame
>>>> >>>> war,
>>>> >>>> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used
>>>> >>>> them.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off
>>>> >>>> applications to
>>>> >>>> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of
>>>> >>>> changes
>>>> >>>> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Is there a PHP question in there? I don't see one...
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Doctrine is PHP. And the question is open ended so other PHP
>>>> >> ORM's could be included in discussion.
>>>> >
>>>> > I still don't see a PHP question here. I see some product questions -
>>>> > which would be better suited in a newsgroup for those applications.
>>>> >
>>>> > Just because something uses PHP does not mean it is appropriate for a
>>>> > PHP language newsgroup.
>>>> >
>>>> > But I know some people don't believe in segregation of newsgroups and
>>>> > think anything should be able to be asked in any newsgroup.
>>>>
>>>> ORM's are not applications. They are libraries.
>>>>
>>>> And since it is question asking for comparison, then a group
>>>> for a specific library is not a good choice.
>>>>
>>>> Instead a group with people with experience and interest in
>>>> different ways of database access from PHP is needed.
>>>>
>>>> comp.lang.php does not seem that far fetched.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously comp.lang.php.databaseaccess or
>>>> comp.lang.php.databaseaccess.orm
>>>> would be even better if such exists.
>>>
>>> Yes, an ORM-related newsgroup would be more appropriate. There you have
>>> people who know the advantages and disadvantages of various ORM's.
>>
>> ORM's are language specific. So it would need to be a PHP ORM group
>> to cover PHP.
>>
>> Does one exist?
>>
>>> Few, if any, in the language-related newsgroups will have used an ORM,
>>> and if they have, they have very limited experience.
>>
>> That depends on the language.
>>
>> In languages like Java and C# it would be >90% that have used an ORM.
>>
>> It is probably much less in PHP as ORM's are not as widely used
>> in the PHP world.
>>
>> But I suspect that Daniel even may be interested in knowing more
>> about why it is so.
>
> If you want, you can talk all you want about it in c.l.j.p. But this
> does not belong in c.l.p.

So you keep saying.

But just saying it does not make it correct.

I just googled and found the original comp.lang.php charter
from 2002.

I says:

"Since database connectivity is a large part of PHP, it will
be considered topical in comp.lang.php."

Unless you have changed the charter since then (Google can not
find that, but that does not prove that it does not exist), then
that means that ORM in PHP is on topic for comp.lang.php.

Arne

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[Message index]

		ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Daniel Pitts on Sun, 22 December 2013 19:05
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Sun, 22 December 2013 19:46
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 22 December 2013 20:17
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Sun, 22 December 2013 20:38
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 22 December 2013 20:47
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:04
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:09
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:20
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:34
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 23 December 2013 01:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Michael Vilain on Mon, 23 December 2013 04:48
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 23 December 2013 12:58
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 03:46
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 30 December 2013 03:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:06
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:21
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 13:04
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:32
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:47
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 30 December 2013 21:23
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Doug Miller on Mon, 30 December 2013 19:45
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Ricardo Palomaes on Mon, 30 December 2013 18:20
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: The Natural Philosoph on Mon, 30 December 2013 18:34
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 19:27
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Marcel Müller on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:26
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:17
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Kevin McMurtrie on Mon, 23 December 2013 00:11
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:08
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Mon, 30 December 2013 21:36
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: The Natural Philosoph on Mon, 30 December 2013 22:13
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Tue, 31 December 2013 02:09
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: The Natural Philosoph on Tue, 31 December 2013 11:30
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 31 December 2013 13:11
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Chris Uppal on Wed, 01 January 2014 14:20
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 03:05
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Thu, 02 January 2014 03:48
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 02:57
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Thu, 02 January 2014 08:04
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 02:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Thu, 02 January 2014 08:09
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 01:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Fri, 03 January 2014 13:18
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 21:45
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 23 December 2013 06:38
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 23 December 2013 12:57
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 23 December 2013 23:11
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 24 December 2013 00:59
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Tue, 24 December 2013 01:14
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:02
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:40
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Mon, 23 December 2013 12:25
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:27
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Mon, 30 December 2013 13:38
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Daniel Pitts on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:36
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Tue, 31 December 2013 00:26
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 03:23
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 03:19
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Thu, 02 January 2014 11:36
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Daniel Pitts on Thu, 02 January 2014 17:36
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Thu, 02 January 2014 20:06
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Chris Uppal on Fri, 03 January 2014 14:48
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 01:59
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 02:07
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 02:10
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Tue, 31 December 2013 13:44
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: leif.roar on Mon, 23 December 2013 13:22
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:20
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Wanja Gayk on Tue, 24 December 2013 11:28
		c By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 24 December 2013 13:49
		Re: c By: Qu0ll on Tue, 24 December 2013 22:35
		Re: c By: Graham Hobbs on Wed, 25 December 2013 00:35
		Re: c By: Jerry Stuckle on Wed, 25 December 2013 05:08
		Re: c By: Qu0ll on Wed, 25 December 2013 06:46
		Re: c By: Graham Hobbs on Wed, 25 December 2013 14:24
		Re: c By: Qu0ll on Wed, 25 December 2013 09:41
		[EOD] Re: c By: Wanja Gayk on Wed, 25 December 2013 10:15
		Re: [EOD] Re: c By: Qu0ll on Wed, 25 December 2013 12:29
		Re: [EOD] Re: c By: The Natural Philosoph on Wed, 25 December 2013 12:48
		Re: c By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 03:51
		Re: c By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 13:03
		Re: c By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:40
		Re: c By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:46
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Wed, 25 December 2013 17:56
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: jebblue on Tue, 31 December 2013 16:52
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Evan Platt on Tue, 31 December 2013 19:50
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Tue, 31 December 2013 21:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: jebblue on Wed, 01 January 2014 01:33
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Thu, 02 January 2014 21:37
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 02:46
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Gordon Levi on Thu, 02 January 2014 08:34
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 01:43
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Gordon Levi on Fri, 03 January 2014 09:19
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 20:43

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