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Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184401 is a reply to message #184398]

Mon, 30 December 2013 17:32

Arne Vajhøj
Messages: 27
Registered: December 2013

Karma:

Junior Member

On 12/30/2013 8:04 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 12/29/2013 10:46 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/22/2013 4:34 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>> On 12/22/2013 4:20 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 12/22/2013 4:09 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> > On 12/22/2013 4:04 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> >> On 12/22/2013 3:47 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> >>> On 12/22/2013 3:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> >>>> On 12/22/2013 3:17 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> >>>>> On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>>> >>>>>> Hey everyone,
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various
>>>> >>>>>> ORMs,
>>>> >>>>>> both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch
>>>> >>>>>> systems to
>>>> >>>>>> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
>>>> >>>>>> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the
>>>> >>>>>> core
>>>> >>>>>> libraries. Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
>>>> >>>>>> business code.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if
>>>> >>>>>> they've
>>>> >>>>>> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they
>>>> >>>>>> use.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>>>> >>>>>> * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>>>> >>>>>> * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around
>>>> >>>>>> 2006)
>>>> >>>>>> * Straight JDBC. Not exactly an ORM :-)
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after
>>>> >>>>>> Hibernate,
>>>> >>>>>> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what
>>>> >>>>>> did
>>>> >>>>>> you
>>>> >>>>>> like and hate about each of them? I'm not trying to start a
>>>> >>>>>> flame
>>>> >>>>>> war,
>>>> >>>>>> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which
>>>> >>>>>> used
>>>> >>>>>> them.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off
>>>> >>>>>> applications to
>>>> >>>>>> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of
>>>> >>>>>> changes
>>>> >>>>>> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Is there a PHP question in there? I don't see one...
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Doctrine is PHP. And the question is open ended so other PHP
>>>> >>>> ORM's could be included in discussion.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I still don't see a PHP question here. I see some product
>>>> >>> questions -
>>>> >>> which would be better suited in a newsgroup for those applications.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Just because something uses PHP does not mean it is appropriate
>>>> >>> for a
>>>> >>> PHP language newsgroup.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> But I know some people don't believe in segregation of newsgroups
>>>> >>> and
>>>> >>> think anything should be able to be asked in any newsgroup.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> ORM's are not applications. They are libraries.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> And since it is question asking for comparison, then a group
>>>> >> for a specific library is not a good choice.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Instead a group with people with experience and interest in
>>>> >> different ways of database access from PHP is needed.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> comp.lang.php does not seem that far fetched.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Obviously comp.lang.php.databaseaccess or
>>>> >> comp.lang.php.databaseaccess.orm
>>>> >> would be even better if such exists.
>>>> >
>>>> > Yes, an ORM-related newsgroup would be more appropriate. There you
>>>> > have
>>>> > people who know the advantages and disadvantages of various ORM's.
>>>>
>>>> ORM's are language specific. So it would need to be a PHP ORM group
>>>> to cover PHP.
>>>>
>>>> Does one exist?
>>>>
>>>> > Few, if any, in the language-related newsgroups will have used an ORM,
>>>> > and if they have, they have very limited experience.
>>>>
>>>> That depends on the language.
>>>>
>>>> In languages like Java and C# it would be >90% that have used an ORM.
>>>>
>>>> It is probably much less in PHP as ORM's are not as widely used
>>>> in the PHP world.
>>>>
>>>> But I suspect that Daniel even may be interested in knowing more
>>>> about why it is so.
>>>
>>> If you want, you can talk all you want about it in c.l.j.p. But this
>>> does not belong in c.l.p.
>>
>> So you keep saying.
>>
>> But just saying it does not make it correct.
>>
>> I just googled and found the original comp.lang.php charter
>> from 2002.
>>
>> I says:
>>
>> "Since database connectivity is a large part of PHP, it will
>> be considered topical in comp.lang.php."
>>
>> Unless you have changed the charter since then (Google can not
>> find that, but that does not prove that it does not exist), then
>> that means that ORM in PHP is on topic for comp.lang.php.
>
> ORM is not database connectivity.

If it is what the PHP code is using to access the database, then
it is providing database connectivity.

> But you're too stoopid to understand
> the difference.

Name calling is not a very convincing argumentation.

Arne

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[Message index]

		ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Daniel Pitts on Sun, 22 December 2013 19:05
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Sun, 22 December 2013 19:46
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 22 December 2013 20:17
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Sun, 22 December 2013 20:38
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 22 December 2013 20:47
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:04
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:09
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:20
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:34
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 23 December 2013 01:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Michael Vilain on Mon, 23 December 2013 04:48
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 23 December 2013 12:58
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 03:46
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 30 December 2013 03:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:06
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:21
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 13:04
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:32
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:47
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 30 December 2013 21:23
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Doug Miller on Mon, 30 December 2013 19:45
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Ricardo Palomaes on Mon, 30 December 2013 18:20
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: The Natural Philosoph on Mon, 30 December 2013 18:34
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 19:27
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Marcel Müller on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:26
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:17
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Kevin McMurtrie on Mon, 23 December 2013 00:11
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:08
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Mon, 30 December 2013 21:36
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: The Natural Philosoph on Mon, 30 December 2013 22:13
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Tue, 31 December 2013 02:09
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: The Natural Philosoph on Tue, 31 December 2013 11:30
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 31 December 2013 13:11
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Chris Uppal on Wed, 01 January 2014 14:20
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 03:05
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Thu, 02 January 2014 03:48
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 02:57
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Thu, 02 January 2014 08:04
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 02:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Thu, 02 January 2014 08:09
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 01:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Fri, 03 January 2014 13:18
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 21:45
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 23 December 2013 06:38
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 23 December 2013 12:57
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 23 December 2013 23:11
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 24 December 2013 00:59
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Tue, 24 December 2013 01:14
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:02
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:40
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Mon, 23 December 2013 12:25
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:27
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Mon, 30 December 2013 13:38
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Daniel Pitts on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:36
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Tue, 31 December 2013 00:26
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 03:23
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 03:19
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Thu, 02 January 2014 11:36
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Daniel Pitts on Thu, 02 January 2014 17:36
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Thu, 02 January 2014 20:06
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Chris Uppal on Fri, 03 January 2014 14:48
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 01:59
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 02:07
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 02:10
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Tue, 31 December 2013 13:44
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: leif.roar on Mon, 23 December 2013 13:22
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:20
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Wanja Gayk on Tue, 24 December 2013 11:28
		c By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 24 December 2013 13:49
		Re: c By: Qu0ll on Tue, 24 December 2013 22:35
		Re: c By: Graham Hobbs on Wed, 25 December 2013 00:35
		Re: c By: Jerry Stuckle on Wed, 25 December 2013 05:08
		Re: c By: Qu0ll on Wed, 25 December 2013 06:46
		Re: c By: Graham Hobbs on Wed, 25 December 2013 14:24
		Re: c By: Qu0ll on Wed, 25 December 2013 09:41
		[EOD] Re: c By: Wanja Gayk on Wed, 25 December 2013 10:15
		Re: [EOD] Re: c By: Qu0ll on Wed, 25 December 2013 12:29
		Re: [EOD] Re: c By: The Natural Philosoph on Wed, 25 December 2013 12:48
		Re: c By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 03:51
		Re: c By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 13:03
		Re: c By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:40
		Re: c By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:46
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Wed, 25 December 2013 17:56
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: jebblue on Tue, 31 December 2013 16:52
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Evan Platt on Tue, 31 December 2013 19:50
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Tue, 31 December 2013 21:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: jebblue on Wed, 01 January 2014 01:33
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Thu, 02 January 2014 21:37
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 02:46
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Gordon Levi on Thu, 02 January 2014 08:34
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 01:43
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Gordon Levi on Fri, 03 January 2014 09:19
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 20:43

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