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Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184405 is a reply to message #184401] Mon, 30 December 2013 17:47 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Jerry Stuckle is currently offline  Jerry Stuckle
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Registered: September 2010
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On 12/30/2013 12:32 PM, The well-known TROLL Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/30/2013 8:04 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> On 12/29/2013 10:46 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 12/22/2013 4:34 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> On 12/22/2013 4:20 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> > On 12/22/2013 4:09 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> >> On 12/22/2013 4:04 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> >>> On 12/22/2013 3:47 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> >>>> On 12/22/2013 3:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> >>>>> On 12/22/2013 3:17 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> >>>>>> On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>> Hey everyone,
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various
>>>> >>>>>>> ORMs,
>>>> >>>>>>> both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch
>>>> >>>>>>> systems to
>>>> >>>>>>> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to
>>>> >>>>>>> solve
>>>> >>>>>>> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the
>>>> >>>>>>> core
>>>> >>>>>>> libraries. Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
>>>> >>>>>>> business code.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if
>>>> >>>>>>> they've
>>>> >>>>>>> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they
>>>> >>>>>>> use.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>>>> >>>>>>> * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>>>> >>>>>>> * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around
>>>> >>>>>>> 2006)
>>>> >>>>>>> * Straight JDBC. Not exactly an ORM :-)
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after
>>>> >>>>>>> Hibernate,
>>>> >>>>>>> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what
>>>> >>>>>>> did
>>>> >>>>>>> you
>>>> >>>>>>> like and hate about each of them? I'm not trying to start a
>>>> >>>>>>> flame
>>>> >>>>>>> war,
>>>> >>>>>>> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which
>>>> >>>>>>> used
>>>> >>>>>>> them.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off
>>>> >>>>>>> applications to
>>>> >>>>>>> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of
>>>> >>>>>>> changes
>>>> >>>>>>> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Is there a PHP question in there? I don't see one...
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Doctrine is PHP. And the question is open ended so other PHP
>>>> >>>>> ORM's could be included in discussion.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I still don't see a PHP question here. I see some product
>>>> >>>> questions -
>>>> >>>> which would be better suited in a newsgroup for those applications.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Just because something uses PHP does not mean it is appropriate
>>>> >>>> for a
>>>> >>>> PHP language newsgroup.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> But I know some people don't believe in segregation of newsgroups
>>>> >>>> and
>>>> >>>> think anything should be able to be asked in any newsgroup.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ORM's are not applications. They are libraries.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> And since it is question asking for comparison, then a group
>>>> >>> for a specific library is not a good choice.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Instead a group with people with experience and interest in
>>>> >>> different ways of database access from PHP is needed.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> comp.lang.php does not seem that far fetched.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Obviously comp.lang.php.databaseaccess or
>>>> >>> comp.lang.php.databaseaccess.orm
>>>> >>> would be even better if such exists.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Yes, an ORM-related newsgroup would be more appropriate. There you
>>>> >> have
>>>> >> people who know the advantages and disadvantages of various ORM's.
>>>> >
>>>> > ORM's are language specific. So it would need to be a PHP ORM group
>>>> > to cover PHP.
>>>> >
>>>> > Does one exist?
>>>> >
>>>> >> Few, if any, in the language-related newsgroups will have used an
>>>> >> ORM,
>>>> >> and if they have, they have very limited experience.
>>>> >
>>>> > That depends on the language.
>>>> >
>>>> > In languages like Java and C# it would be >90% that have used an ORM.
>>>> >
>>>> > It is probably much less in PHP as ORM's are not as widely used
>>>> > in the PHP world.
>>>> >
>>>> > But I suspect that Daniel even may be interested in knowing more
>>>> > about why it is so.
>>>>
>>>> If you want, you can talk all you want about it in c.l.j.p. But this
>>>> does not belong in c.l.p.
>>>
>>> So you keep saying.
>>>
>>> But just saying it does not make it correct.
>>>
>>> I just googled and found the original comp.lang.php charter
>>> from 2002.
>>>
>>> I says:
>>>
>>> "Since database connectivity is a large part of PHP, it will
>>> be considered topical in comp.lang.php."
>>>
>>> Unless you have changed the charter since then (Google can not
>>> find that, but that does not prove that it does not exist), then
>>> that means that ORM in PHP is on topic for comp.lang.php.
>>
>> ORM is not database connectivity.
>
> If it is what the PHP code is using to access the database, then
> it is providing database connectivity.
>
>> But you're too stoopid to understand
>> the difference.
>
> Name calling is not a very convincing argumentation.
>
> Arne
>
>
>
>
>

The truth hurts, doesn't it?


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==================
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Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex(at)attglobal(dot)net
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