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Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184455 is a reply to message #184400]

Thu, 02 January 2014 03:19

Arne Vajhøj
Messages: 27
Registered: December 2013

Karma:

Junior Member

On 12/30/2013 8:38 AM, Silvio wrote:
> On 12/30/2013 05:27 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/23/2013 7:25 AM, Silvio wrote:
>> Most places they are actually able to get ORM working.
>>
>> I am not quite sure that I can follow you.
>>
>> If you want OO for the code and you want the relational database,
>> then you must do a mapping between the two.
>>
>> You can either hand write a lot of code or use an ORM.
>>
>> Typical using an ORM is faster because it means less code.
>>
>> You may not be able to use ORM 100%, but then use it 90% and
>> hand write code for the remaining 10%.
>
> ORMs are good at what they where invented for: serializing an object and
> resurrecting it at a later point in time.

Storing objects in a relational database via ORM is very different
from serialization (for non-trivial usage).

A serialization stores everything in a sequential stream of data.

Storing objects in a relational database via ORM store the stuff
not already stored in different tables.

Using a document store have some similarities with serialization.

> That means you have to design
> your system and its underlying data as a collection of objects with
> (encapsulated) member data. Using that approach the lifetime of an
> object instance must be able to extend the actual running span of the
> program. That requires serialization/resurrection by definition.

No.

It requires the ability to save and load data.

> Apart
> from the fact that I think that this is a bad approach on its own, to
> constrain memory usage objects need to be put to sleep by default and be
> resurrected only when they are accessed.

That is how persistence works. The data are on disk and when a program
needs them they are read from disk to memory.

> This makes the approach even
> more blurred and needlessly complex, bringing stuff like caching and
> managing/synchronizing duplicate object instances across concurrently
> running program instances into the picture.

But that is not in any way ORM specific.

Plain JDBC will have the same potential issues with caching.

> To make things worse almost no system only needs single object
> instances. Almost any practical system needs counts, averages etc. which
> could be done with a query on an RDBMS or by traversing object instances
> IF THEY WHERE REAL INSTANCES. Since doing the latter with an ORM would
> require resurrecting enormous amounts of instances for practical reasons
> you have to pour water into the wine and do atypical stuff like joins
> and aggregate queries through the ORM.

????

Joins is a core feature of an ORM.

> I know they CAN do this but that
> is no more than a wart on such systems since they contradict the primary
> goal of an ORM.

Aggregate functions are not very ORM'ish.

But if they are used much in the transactional work that ORM
is intended, then something is wrong in the first place.

> This is also the area where ORMs failed in the projects
> I talked about. It's not that the ORM can not do it, it just can not do
> it sufficiently well even with help from the most experienced experts we
> could find.

????

Joins is a core feature of ORM.

And common Java ORM's like JPA implemntations and Hibernate does
aggregate functions exactly like SQL in JPQL and HQL respectively.

I wonder what kind of "experts" you got.

Arne

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[Message index]

		ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Daniel Pitts on Sun, 22 December 2013 19:05
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Sun, 22 December 2013 19:46
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 22 December 2013 20:17
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Sun, 22 December 2013 20:38
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 22 December 2013 20:47
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:04
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:09
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:20
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:34
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 23 December 2013 01:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Michael Vilain on Mon, 23 December 2013 04:48
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 23 December 2013 12:58
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 03:46
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 30 December 2013 03:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:06
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:21
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 13:04
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:32
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:47
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 30 December 2013 21:23
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Doug Miller on Mon, 30 December 2013 19:45
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Ricardo Palomaes on Mon, 30 December 2013 18:20
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: The Natural Philosoph on Mon, 30 December 2013 18:34
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 19:27
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Marcel Müller on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:26
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:17
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Kevin McMurtrie on Mon, 23 December 2013 00:11
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:08
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Mon, 30 December 2013 21:36
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: The Natural Philosoph on Mon, 30 December 2013 22:13
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Tue, 31 December 2013 02:09
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: The Natural Philosoph on Tue, 31 December 2013 11:30
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 31 December 2013 13:11
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Chris Uppal on Wed, 01 January 2014 14:20
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 03:05
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Thu, 02 January 2014 03:48
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 02:57
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Thu, 02 January 2014 08:04
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 02:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Thu, 02 January 2014 08:09
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 01:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Fri, 03 January 2014 13:18
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 21:45
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 23 December 2013 06:38
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 23 December 2013 12:57
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 23 December 2013 23:11
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 24 December 2013 00:59
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Tue, 24 December 2013 01:14
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:02
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:40
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Mon, 23 December 2013 12:25
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:27
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Mon, 30 December 2013 13:38
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Daniel Pitts on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:36
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Tue, 31 December 2013 00:26
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 03:23
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 03:19
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Thu, 02 January 2014 11:36
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Daniel Pitts on Thu, 02 January 2014 17:36
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Thu, 02 January 2014 20:06
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Chris Uppal on Fri, 03 January 2014 14:48
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 01:59
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 02:07
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 02:10
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Tue, 31 December 2013 13:44
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: leif.roar on Mon, 23 December 2013 13:22
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:20
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Wanja Gayk on Tue, 24 December 2013 11:28
		c By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 24 December 2013 13:49
		Re: c By: Qu0ll on Tue, 24 December 2013 22:35
		Re: c By: Graham Hobbs on Wed, 25 December 2013 00:35
		Re: c By: Jerry Stuckle on Wed, 25 December 2013 05:08
		Re: c By: Qu0ll on Wed, 25 December 2013 06:46
		Re: c By: Graham Hobbs on Wed, 25 December 2013 14:24
		Re: c By: Qu0ll on Wed, 25 December 2013 09:41
		[EOD] Re: c By: Wanja Gayk on Wed, 25 December 2013 10:15
		Re: [EOD] Re: c By: Qu0ll on Wed, 25 December 2013 12:29
		Re: [EOD] Re: c By: The Natural Philosoph on Wed, 25 December 2013 12:48
		Re: c By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 03:51
		Re: c By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 13:03
		Re: c By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:40
		Re: c By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:46
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Wed, 25 December 2013 17:56
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: jebblue on Tue, 31 December 2013 16:52
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Evan Platt on Tue, 31 December 2013 19:50
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Tue, 31 December 2013 21:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: jebblue on Wed, 01 January 2014 01:33
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Thu, 02 January 2014 21:37
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 02:46
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Gordon Levi on Thu, 02 January 2014 08:34
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 01:43
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Gordon Levi on Fri, 03 January 2014 09:19
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 20:43

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