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Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. [message #184482 is a reply to message #184463]

Fri, 03 January 2014 02:07

Arne Vajhøj
Messages: 27
Registered: December 2013

Karma:

Junior Member

On 1/2/2014 6:36 AM, Silvio wrote:
> On 01/02/2014 04:19 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/30/2013 8:38 AM, Silvio wrote:
>>> Apart
>>> from the fact that I think that this is a bad approach on its own, to
>>> constrain memory usage objects need to be put to sleep by default and be
>>> resurrected only when they are accessed.
>>
>> That is how persistence works. The data are on disk and when a program
>> needs them they are read from disk to memory.
>>
>>> This makes the approach even
>>> more blurred and needlessly complex, bringing stuff like caching and
>>> managing/synchronizing duplicate object instances across concurrently
>>> running program instances into the picture.
>>
>> But that is not in any way ORM specific.
>>
>> Plain JDBC will have the same potential issues with caching.
>
> In theory the ORM approach does not need more caching than a RDBMS
> driven approach. In practice this is not the case.

????

Some ORM's come without what at least in the Java world is known
as level 2 cache (cache of data outside of ongoing transaction).

But for those with level 2 cache, then I have never seen one
where it could not be disabled.

If you don't want it, then just turn it of.

> The number of cases
> where caching outside of the RDBMS is actually needed is very limited
> and I rarely use any form of data caching.

????

Use of cache is essential for achieving good performance for many many
types of application no matter language, database or database access
technology.

> Without exception all the ORM systems I worked on relied heavily on
> caching or the would not be practically usable.

I don't know what ORM's you have worked with.

But the ORM's create the same SQL as handwritten SQL, so there are
no more and no less need for caching.

Furthermore among some of the most popular ORM's then level 2 cache is
either disabled by default (Hibernate) or not existing (EF).

>>> To make things worse almost no system only needs single object
>>> instances. Almost any practical system needs counts, averages etc. which
>>> could be done with a query on an RDBMS or by traversing object instances
>>> IF THEY WHERE REAL INSTANCES. Since doing the latter with an ORM would
>>> require resurrecting enormous amounts of instances for practical reasons
>>> you have to pour water into the wine and do atypical stuff like joins
>>> and aggregate queries through the ORM.
>>
>> ????
>>
>> Joins is a core feature of an ORM.
>
> You can do joins easily but that is not the big problem. The core
> problem is that joins create new views on the underlying data that do
> not match with the entity classes that match its underlying tables. To
> represent the data from a join properly you would need a new class and
> then you get into one of the biggest culprits with ORM: aliased data and
> cache redundancy.

????

Any decent ORM just do the joins, load the data and no aliased data
(beyond where required due to data actually being the same also in the
database).

Arne

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[Message index]

		ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Daniel Pitts on Sun, 22 December 2013 19:05
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Sun, 22 December 2013 19:46
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 22 December 2013 20:17
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Sun, 22 December 2013 20:38
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 22 December 2013 20:47
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:04
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:09
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:20
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:34
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 23 December 2013 01:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Michael Vilain on Mon, 23 December 2013 04:48
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 23 December 2013 12:58
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 03:46
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 30 December 2013 03:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:06
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:21
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 13:04
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:32
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:47
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 30 December 2013 21:23
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Doug Miller on Mon, 30 December 2013 19:45
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Ricardo Palomaes on Mon, 30 December 2013 18:20
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: The Natural Philosoph on Mon, 30 December 2013 18:34
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 19:27
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Marcel Müller on Sun, 22 December 2013 21:26
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:17
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Kevin McMurtrie on Mon, 23 December 2013 00:11
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:08
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Mon, 30 December 2013 21:36
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: The Natural Philosoph on Mon, 30 December 2013 22:13
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Tue, 31 December 2013 02:09
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: The Natural Philosoph on Tue, 31 December 2013 11:30
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 31 December 2013 13:11
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Chris Uppal on Wed, 01 January 2014 14:20
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 03:05
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Thu, 02 January 2014 03:48
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 02:57
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Thu, 02 January 2014 08:04
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 02:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Thu, 02 January 2014 08:09
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 01:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Fri, 03 January 2014 13:18
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 21:45
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 23 December 2013 06:38
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 23 December 2013 12:57
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 23 December 2013 23:11
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 24 December 2013 00:59
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Tue, 24 December 2013 01:14
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:02
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Qu0ll on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:40
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Mon, 23 December 2013 12:25
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:27
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Mon, 30 December 2013 13:38
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Daniel Pitts on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:36
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Tue, 31 December 2013 00:26
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 03:23
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 03:19
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Thu, 02 January 2014 11:36
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Daniel Pitts on Thu, 02 January 2014 17:36
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Silvio on Thu, 02 January 2014 20:06
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Chris Uppal on Fri, 03 January 2014 14:48
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 01:59
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 02:07
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 02:10
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Tue, 31 December 2013 13:44
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: leif.roar on Mon, 23 December 2013 13:22
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 04:20
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Wanja Gayk on Tue, 24 December 2013 11:28
		c By: Jerry Stuckle on Tue, 24 December 2013 13:49
		Re: c By: Qu0ll on Tue, 24 December 2013 22:35
		Re: c By: Graham Hobbs on Wed, 25 December 2013 00:35
		Re: c By: Jerry Stuckle on Wed, 25 December 2013 05:08
		Re: c By: Qu0ll on Wed, 25 December 2013 06:46
		Re: c By: Graham Hobbs on Wed, 25 December 2013 14:24
		Re: c By: Qu0ll on Wed, 25 December 2013 09:41
		[EOD] Re: c By: Wanja Gayk on Wed, 25 December 2013 10:15
		Re: [EOD] Re: c By: Qu0ll on Wed, 25 December 2013 12:29
		Re: [EOD] Re: c By: The Natural Philosoph on Wed, 25 December 2013 12:48
		Re: c By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 03:51
		Re: c By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 13:03
		Re: c By: Arne Vajhøj on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:40
		Re: c By: Jerry Stuckle on Mon, 30 December 2013 17:46
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Wed, 25 December 2013 17:56
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: jebblue on Tue, 31 December 2013 16:52
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Evan Platt on Tue, 31 December 2013 19:50
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Tue, 31 December 2013 21:54
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: jebblue on Wed, 01 January 2014 01:33
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arved Sandstrom on Thu, 02 January 2014 21:37
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Thu, 02 January 2014 02:46
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Gordon Levi on Thu, 02 January 2014 08:34
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 01:43
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Gordon Levi on Fri, 03 January 2014 09:19
		Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. By: Arne Vajhøj on Fri, 03 January 2014 20:43

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